Video follow-up of John's post from earlier. If conservatives stand by their strict pro-life convictions, this alone should sink Rudy's chances. Glenn doesn't think it will matter. In my opinion, Rudy's blatantly un-American stance on lawless imprisonment (among many. many other things) should completely disqualify him.
Download BASH: So you support taxpayer money or public funding for abortion in some cases?
GIULIANI: If it would deprive someone of a constitutional right, yes. I mean if that -- if that's the status of the law then I would, yes.
To his credit, at least he's not a flip-flopper. Well, on this issue, at least.
Transcripts for the full interview available below the fold.
THIS IS A RUSH FDCH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mayor Giuliani, thank you
very much for sitting down.
RUDY GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: First, breaking news. Iran, President Ahmadinejad has said that he is releasing the 15 British sailors, said that it was a gift to the British. Can you assess Ahmadinejad? Do you think he is more of a threat than Kim Jong-il of North Korea? More of a threat than Saddam Hussein was five years ago?
GIULIANI: Well, first of all, obviously, we are glad that the Iranians released them. Thank God. I'm sure Tony Blair and the President feel relieved about that. Is he more of a threat? I mean, it's very hard to -- he is a big threat.
And in some ways in think Iran is a bigger threat than Iraq. Maybe certainly now, I don't know about before, it's hard to evaluate all of that. And he seems like a very irrational person. And it's sort of the worst nightmare of the Cold War, which is possibly nuclear weapons in the hands of an irrational person.
Kim Jong-il, same problem. Although with Kim Jong-il, at least you have got a core of countries surrounding him that he really has to respond to, China in particular, to some extent South Korea now. They seem to be constructively engaged in trying to move North Korea in theright direction. It doesn't mean it is going to work, but at least there is some hope there.
Ahmadinejad, I think Ahmadinejad has to truly believe that America is strong, that America would use the military option if it absolutely had to do, not that we want to...
BASH: But can he believe that when he looks next door and sees the United States essentially stuck in a place where the United States didn't expect to be several years ago?
GIULIANI: No, I think he can. The United States is a big country, it has got a tremendous military. The idea that America is bogged makes no sense. I mean, it really isn't. We have got enormous resources. I think that is probably why we deployed the Navy. Our Navy isn'tterribly engaged in Iraq. Our Air Force isn't terribly engaged at this point.
The point is not to have to use the military option. The point is to let them know that it is there, and then to use diplomatic options, and then to use sanctions, and then to use disinvestments.
And then if he believes that we are strong, then those all work better. But if believes that we are a paper tiger, a retreating army, a retreating country, I think those other things become tougher to accomplish.
BASH: Now there -- another piece of news out today, CNN and WMURNew Hampshire have a new poll out that has you dead even with Senator John McCain, 29 to 29 percent, Romney is at 17.
What does that say to you? Do you think, for example, the fact thatSenator McCain won in New Hampshire in the year 2000, that if you beat him, or if anyone beats, is he done after...
(LAUGHTER)
GIULIANI: John McCain is never done. I know John McCain. I admire John McCain. And he is probably -- of all of the people in the race, he is my closest friend. And I admire Mitt Romney very, very much.
John McCain is never going to be done. I don't know if I'm going to beat him or he is going to beat me in New Hampshire. But if I do beat him in New Hampshire, I expect to see him in South Carolina and I expect to see him in California, and I expect to see him everyplace else. This is a very, very strong man, a very determined man. We have seen just about even in New Hampshire. A couple of times I have been ahead of him. A couple of times he has been ahead of me by 10 points. We are probably going right down to the wire then. And probably the
same thing is going to be true in Iowa, South Carolina, Florida, in a couple of places I'm ahead of him. I don't expect to remain ahead of him for long.
He is a very, very strong competitor and a really great guy.
BASH: Back on Iraq. You have been very, very outspoken about youroption to what Democrats are doing in terms of a timeline or deadline for withdrawal in Iraq. You even said today, it is like crying uncle. It is giving the enemy...
GIULIANI: It is.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: ... plan. But having said that though, you are somebody who has made his name on results and leadership, is there something to be said for the Democrats' argument that you have to make it clear to the Iraqi government that the United States isn't going to be there forever? Is there some way that to communicate that that to them, perhaps some people in Washington are floating the idea of a classified deadline? Would you go for that?
GIULIANI: Anything that is done off the radar screen, fine, that is the way you do diplomacy, that is the way you put on pressure. I think this idea of, we want to put pressure on Iran -- the Iranian governmentand -- but instead what we are doing is putting our soldiers at risk, doesn't make any sense.
It is like we kind of had a -- actually, it is common sense, we haven't exercised restraint, if what we want to do is
get them to get more involved in their own security, I would like to see them get more involved in rebuilding their country.
I always believe in constructive activity. If you ask me, what am I worried about going wrong with this new strategy, it is not the clear part, I think that is going to work, it is not the whole part, I hope that works. We didn't do that before. But I think we have a plan now to do that.
I'm more worried about the build part. Are we going to get Iraniansactively involved in large numbers in rebuilding their schools, rebuilding their highways, rebuilding their factories? Are wegoing to get the 60 percent unemployment down to 30 percent?
I know this sounds like domestic problems, but we have taken on these domestic problems in what we have done here. And maybe we didn't focus on that enough. And I hope that we are doing that.
BASH: And again on the polls, you have surprised a lot of people in the fact that you are way ahead in many polls nationally. A lot of political observers say, how can Rudy Giuliani, who is so socially moderate, be doing so well among Republican voters?
I want to flesh you out a little bit on some of the issues.
GIULIANI: I don't think of myself as being way ahead. And there are polls that have been that way - polls where I have been behind, even. I think I'm competitive, that is the way I look at it.
BASH: OK.
GIULIANI: And we made the decision to enter Iowa and run in Iowa, not because we know we can win it. Who the heck knows that? We think we are competitive.
We think there are a lot of Republicans who are willing to look at the whole record and to take a look at, what can he do for us in terms of dealing with terrorism? What can he do for us in terms of the economy? Is he going to be the fiscal conservative?
BASH: Let me ask you about that record.
GIULIANI: Sure.
BASH: For example, on abortion, you are a self-described pro-choice Republican. There is a woman out there who says, I like Rudy Giuliani because I think he is going to keep me safe, he is going to lower my taxes, he is going to get our budget balanced, but I want to know is going to have the same position that he did as president that he did as mayor, which is to protect and defend my right to choose?
What would President Giuliani say?
GIULIANI: Same position -- I'm in the same position now that I was12 years ago when I ran for mayor -- as mayor, which is, personally opposed to abortion, don't like it, hate it, would advise that woman to have an adoption rather than abortion, hope to find the money for it.
But it is your choice, an individual right. You get to make that choice, and I don't think society should be putting in jail...
BASH: And one of the things that you have said is that you will appoint strict constructionist judges.
GIULIANI: For different reasons, not necessarily that reason. I -- generally, that is my philosophy. That is the only way I can really see it. We protect the separation of powers, personal liberties.
By strict constructionist judges, I mean judges who will interpret the meaning of the Constitution, not create...
BASH: And many people see that as code. The conservatives can saythat means that he is giving me a wink and a nod saying he wants tooverturn Roe v. Wade. Do you want to overturn Roe v. Wade?
GIULIANI: Dana, I don't wink and nod. I'm a very direct person. I tell people what...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: So what is the direct answer?
GIULIANI: The direct answer is, a strict constructionist judge can come to either conclusion about Roe against Wade. They can look at it and say, wrongly decided 30 years ago, whatever it is, we will overturn it.
BASH: But what is your personal deal on Roe v. Wade?
GIULIANI: They can look at it and say, it has been the law for this period of time, therefore we are going to respect the precedent. Conservatives can come to that conclusion as well. I would leave it up
to them. I would not have a litmus test on that.
My overall view would be judges who are going to struggle with the meaning of the Constitution, and that applies to criminal justice issues, it applies to terrorism issues, it applies to a whole host of issues, to the Second Amendment and the individual right to bear arms, there is a whole group of issues.
BASH: One last question on abortion. You might have heard of YouTube. There is something on YouTube from 1989, it is flying around the Internet. It is a clip of you, and I will read it to you, I will read it to you, on abortion.
"There must be public funding for abortions for poor women. We cannot deny any woman the right to make her own decision about abortion because she lacks resources."
Then you said at the time about then-President Bush: "I have also stated that I disagree with President Bush's veto last week of public funding for abortion."
Is that also going to be your position as president?
GIULIANI: Probably, I mean, I have to re-examine all of thoseissues and exactly what was at stake then -- that was a long time ago. But generally that is my view, abortion is wrong, personally you should counsel people to that extent.
When I was mayor, adoptions went up, abortions went down, butultimately it is a constitutional right, and therefore if it is a constitutional right ultimately, even if you do it on a state-by-state basis, you have to make sure that people are protected.
BASH: Do you support taxpayer money or public funding for abortions in some cases?
GIULIANI: If it would deprive someone of a constitutional right, yes, if that's the status of the law, then I would, yes.
BASH: OK. One other question on this, a different social issue, on gay rights. What would the commander-in-chief Rudy Giuliani -- what would you position be on gays in the military?
GIULIANI: Well, I don't think there should be discriminationagainst gays. I think I'm -- unlike what some of my opponents have said, I'm not in favor of gay marriage. I have consistently said marriage should be between a man and a woman.
I do think that people who have a sexual orientation one kind or another should not be discriminated against. I think the policy that we have right now, we should leave alone. We are in a time of war.
When we get out of the crisis, when we get out of the situation, we can consistently review it and look at it. But it shouldn't be done right now. It would be a very big mistake to re-raise that issue right now when we are dealing not just with Iraq, but this entire war on terror.
BASH: General Peter Pace said that homosexuality is immoral. What do you think?
GIULIANI: This is -- we are getting -- we are in the Easter season, and my view of Christianity -- and Christianity is very important to me, the teachings of Jesus are very important to me. I kind think of when Jesus drew the line and said, you know, he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone.
So I don't go around judging other people. It isn't my role todetermine what is a sin, what isn't a sin. What my role is, what is legal, what is illegal, I have been really clear on that role throughout
my life. I have done a pretty good job of putting people in jail who did things that were illegal. And the rest of it I leave to the priests, the ministers, the rabbis, the imams and to your personal conscience. I think that's what Thomas Jefferson had in mind, and I think it's gotten America to being the greatest country in the world.
BASH: We're talking about your record and your personal views onissues, but as you well know, your personal life and your family has been scrutinized and probably will continue to be scrutinized over the next several months.
One of the things that has come up is your son, and he has gone public and said that he has -- that there's a rift between you two. Have you reached out to him?
GIULIANI: Of course I have, but my conversations with my son arevery, very private. They're between my son and I. I love him, he loves me. My wife, Judith, loves all of our children. We're -- we've got issues. Every American family, in one way or another, I guess has issues. I mean, a lot of people have communicated with me about it, even given me advice about it because they've gone through similar kinds of things.
Look, I would prefer if there wasn't any scrutiny of my private life. However, I was the mayor of New York, I'm used to it, I'm ready for it. I just ask -- and you can look at anything you like, you have a right to -- the only thing I ask you to do is, look at my public record, because there's a way in which you can test how the issues in my private life affect my performance in office. You can look at what I accomplished.
I think the reason that you look -- meaning the press -- look at my private life, and have a right to, is to figure out what kind of president will he make, how will this affect him, will it distract him, will it hurt him? Well, I went through all these issues: took the city from the worst crime situation in the country to the favorite large cityin America; took the city from the worst welfare situation in the country to the best welfare-to-work situation; took the city from a deficit to a surplus and got us through September 11, and all these personal things were going on at the same time. I don't think it affects my job performance.
BASH: Since you brought that up, can I just ask you one thing aboutsomething that a conservative leader, Richard Land said? He said, just to that very issue, that you say that these are separate -- aseparate issue, he said about the fact that you were married three times, that "He lied to them," meaning your former wives, "What makes
you think that he won't lie to you?" This is what he says to the voters.
GIULIANI: I tell you what, I've been in public office -- assistantUnited States attorney, United States attorney, mayor of New York City-- probably had more experience, more varied experience, than anyone in this race, and I've had a very extensive record of success, failure --nobody's ever questioned my honesty and integrity about the things that I do.
So, look at that. Look at my public record. My personal life, I've made mistakes. I've had a rocky road. I regret them. But they are between me, god, my conscience and the people involved. I wish I had led a perfect life. I keep striving, I keep trying to learn, I keep praying for help.
But look at my public life. With all of those issues -- which maybe different than others, maybe the same as others -- I've also had the most extensive career of any of the people running for office, which had great success. It's had some failures. Go look at that; examine that. Examine the mistakes I made there, and then the success that I had there.
That's the way I would do it. Everybody else has a right to do it some other way, but if I were making the choice, that's what I would go do.
BASH: One last question: you suffered, several years ago, from prostate cancer. There have been some high-profile political figures that have been in the news recently whose cancer has returned. How are you feeling? How often do you get checked and what can you say --
GIULIANI: Well, my heart goes out to Tony Snow and Mrs. Edwards. I have tremendous admiration for both of them the way they've handled it. I know what -- the way they've handled it, with the kind of courage andoptimism, is helping a lot of people at home who are dealing with cancer.
I'm very healthy now. I've had five-six years of PSA tests, they'veall been, you know, sub-anything that would be of any concern. I think they're zero, zero, zero five -- that's considered indistinguishable.
So I think, for all intents and purposes, the cancer is cured. But of course I get tested every six months, which you're supposed to do. And so far, thank god, it's all been -- it's all worked out. It's all worked out very, well.
But every time I hear about cancer, it has a special effect on me. And I counsel a lot of people who are dealing with prostate cancer, andI try to focus them on the treatments they can use. And I try to remind them to get tested early and often. If you do that, you can beat this disease.
BASH: Mayor Giuliani, thank you very much. Appreciate your time.
GIULIANI: Thanks, Dana.
BASH: Thank you, sir.
GIULIANI: Thank you very much.
END
