On Immigration
By John Amato Saturday Jun 30, 2007 6:06pmMy grandparents refused to speak Italian to their children because of the racial pressures they faced in the early 1900's. Because of that I never learned Italian and it often upset me as I grew up and appreciated what a gift it would have been to speak a second language. It's too bad that Congress couldn't have taken their time (Tancredo is Italian and this exchange about the English language is an embarrassment...see video.) and worked out a comprehensive plan, but the Republicans blocked it. Arthur links to an article by Peter Quinn that talks about the history of this country on immigration and its sins. History is something we sorely lack...
Considering that the United States is made up of "others" and those descended from "others," it is remarkable how much we hate the "other" targeted for vilification at any particular moment in history. We don't hate only those "others" who come here: we hate the "others" who remain there, wherever "there" might be...
At the conclusion of his article, Quinn wonders "whether we will learn from the past or repeat it." On this, as on every other issue of consequence, the evidence compels but one conclusion: we resolutely refuse to learn a single damned thing from the past -- especially since we are almost entirely ignorant of our own past, as well as everyone else's -- and we will repeat it an endless number of times, with all its grisly, bloody details fully intact..read on
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:lol:
As the sage Allan Sherman pointed out in one his skits/songs, 'America is a nice Italian name'
http://www.povonline.com/sherman/Sherman03.htm
America, after all, was named after the very Italian Amerigo Vespucci.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci
Oh Well, Ciao Y'all!
Tancredo è italiano? Paisan, quello è notizie difettose. Dimenticar a questo proposito. Geez.
It's painful to watch Tancredo stammer his way through his argument. That was English, right?
BTW, my grandmother is in the second generation of her family born in the USA (all of her grandparents migrated from Quebec), and she was raised speakin' both English and French. Hell, her Nuns/teachers at St. Jean's conducted half of the instruction in French.
By John Amato who is talking about Arthur who links to an article by Peter Quinn and something about a Tancredo video. I just couldn't follow this posting at all. Who is talking?
I certainly wouldn't relocate to Mexico and expect to prosper without knowing Spanish that I can assure you.
Tancredo is a fucking imbecile who needs to be smacked about the head and neck until he pees blood. Sorry, but this is the same asshole who said we should blow up Mecca, just when our guys are desperate to win hearts and minds. I sent a very polite letter to him requesting that he refrain from using such inflammatory language when we have men and women busting their asses to build alliances with the average Iraqi, so ya know, they won't like, join the fucking insurgency. He sent me back a letter telling me that I'm wrong, my husband knew what he was getting into, and George Bush's plan would work. Sorry, Tancredo needs a painful case of scabies so his dinky little dick falls off.
Notes on Nationalism
May, 1945 - George Orwell
You must have an other, a boogie man, someone or something to be against in order rally people into Nationalism. When people do not speak another language it is easy to assume it is inferior.
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
As a grandson of immigrants, and proud of it, I have gotten worked up lately about all the xenophobes (descendants of immigrants themselves, of course) who are trying like hell to slam the door on new arrivals. So the immigration bill failed; I didn't like it anyway. Way too nasty and mean spirited. Let's try again in 2009 with bigger majorities and a sane president.
I am going to be a grandfather for the first time in the next week or so. My daughter-in-law is a new immigrant. My new granddaughter will be a triumph of hybrid vigor, I am confident. She will be (in descending order of ethnicity) one quarter each Chinese and Japanese, one eighth each Polish, Italian, and Lithuanian , and one sixteenth each English and French. How about that for a mongrel!
Arthur Silber, linked to in the above post, cites the Rev. Lyman Beecher as an unreconstructed foe of immigrants (Irish at the time). My wife is one of his many descendants. Oh, and my other son will be marrying an Irish-American. Don't you think hyphens are getting a little tedious.
My Grandmother was "off the boat" Italian...
Tancredo's, ethnic genetics shame me as much as Alito, Scalia, Mussolini, Roman Emperors and a number of Popes do...
I say Ba Fungul!! to those bastards (thanks Grandma! :D )
Well at least we have Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Galileo, Dimaggeo, and Rizzuto. To balance out our shared Genetic shame...
Wait a minute. The difference between the immigrants of the past and the immigrants of today are vast. The immigrants of the past, my family included, did everything they could to fit in to America. They learned English and made that their first priority so they could communicate with the citizens and get a job. Immigrants today are unwilling to learn our language and we are encouraging this behavior by making everything available in their language. If you are raising a child and they are not learning math what are you going to do? Would you hand them the answers or make them learn? I do not care if they immigrate here, but learn the freaking language...is that so hard?
Basically it's all a plot to divide Americans into splintered fragments. The elites would be scared sh*tless if ALL Americans united and actually became a seriously powerful political force.
scott @ 12:
The cheap labor capitalists don't care what language they speak just as long as they'll follow orders, never complain, and bust ass seven days a week for low wages and no benefits and guarantees.
My grandparents refused to speak Italian to their children, also, and so my mother and my aunts and uncles didn't learn to speak it and so didn't teach it to us grandkids, which was a big handicap when we ended up in Las Vegas back in the 50's and 60's and wanted to get 'made' in the mob, and we couldn't talk 'goombah'.
Boy, how we wished that my grandparents had talked Italian to their kids. But they were so busy starting their liquor-smuggling business (they were Irish), that they didn't have time to learn a third language. (All they spoke was Irish and English).
Scott the problem is, while they are learning English, they are falling behind in Math, history, science and other subjects, so they are fast tracked by teaching them other subjects in their languages. And let's face it, watch George Bush attempt to speak, English is difficult as his first language. It's a tough launguage all around. Especially if the only way you have to learn it is from the boob tube.
My children could have spoken Spanish, but it was too much trouble to speak to them in Spanish because their father was English only speaker. Now my two grandchildren have benefited from living in France and the U.S. Both the children are fluent in English and French, but because most of their schooling has been in U.S. public schools, they have only learned to write English. In France most children learn two languages in school, and English is becoming more prevalent.
My response to To L.A. Confidential is that you don't know what you're are talking about. There are many many foreigners in this country, not just from Mexico, who do not speak English very well and are very successful. And there are many, many foreigners in Mexico who also do not speak Spanish very well and are also successful. Making money is much easier than you think. In any case, I do wish most illegals would leave this country. And I would not be upset if they were deported. It would be a good thing for everyone concerned.
And too bad Mexicans won't speak English to their kids. I think it's really whacked that I can watch travel programs and see people in really far off countries speaking English yet English isn't taught in Mexico. If Mexican immigrants spoke fluent English, I doubt there would be the same level of zenophobia as there is now.
L.A. Confidential @ 14:
And that is not right either. If they were legal immigrants though the situation would be different. they could have the right to unionize or form labor organizations. Since they are not legal it is a catch 22 for them. I am a big believer in human rights and treating people fairly, but it is stupid to believe that we should let all illegals stay here. What makes them so special that they can break the law and the ordinary American can not? If they love this country like they claim they do then enter it legally, again is that so hard to do?
Smakc_dab @ 18:
.....wow.....this is so silly....i can't even think of a response.
Prabhata @ 17:
Sure it is. If you already have money.
I would have loved to speak a Scandinavian language of my parents but they didn’t even learn me to talk good English!:o)
Strawberry @ 16:
I know English is a messed up language, one of the toughest to learn, but if my ancestors could do it they can to. I was referring mostly to adult immigrants, not their kids. If the parents learned then they could teach the kids. I am sorry, but there is no excuse. If I was going to up and move to a new country I would do my best to learn the language, in this case, they do not. I see no reason why English should not be the official language of America, all our founding documents were written in it.
scott @ 19:
Well the whole NAFTA deal is a farce because Mexico was supposed to hold it's end of the bargin up and they never did. I'm not trying to be mean about it but they failed miserably in creating prosperity and growth for their own people and they have had ample opportunity to do so. There is no reason on earth Mexicans should have to abandon their own country in mass exodus other then corruption is giving them little choice.
goddamn it...i aint a xenophobe or a racist
did any of you take the time to read the bill? or do you all just like talking out of your asses and calling those who opposed it racists?
the bill was written by corporatists, who made sure to include provisions that would allow a steady stream of "guest workers" into the country...ostesibly to lessen pressure at the border...but in fact, to make sure that these united states has a permanent underclass...and to make sure that wages in certain fields never get above poverty level.
think those guest workers get any rights???
and the argument was always about illegal immigration....not immigration
why should people who break our laws get a leg up on those that have followed the rules and emmigrated here legally?
call me a racist if you want...as long as i can call you a moronic tool of the corporatists
We now have something like 10% of Mexico in the US, illegally, depending on which number you believe (12-20 million). As the son of legal immigrants, I appreciate the opportunities here, and have no problem with legal immigration, but we have tremendous problems here regarding the shrinkage of the middle class. I cannot fathom how anyone thinks MORE unskilled labor will raise salaries at any level. Supply and Demand, remember? If Bush supports this legislation, there is a major benefit for Big Business and that does not mean better wages for the masses.
Is the method of transport the criteria for allowing non-citizens to move to the US? Why aren't we asking for 10% of impoverished Africans, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, etc., to come on over? Is it because they can't walk here? And if we are not giving them the same benefits, isn't that racist?
Haven't we learned we cannot be the world's policeman? We can't be the world's social worker, either. Other countries need to step up and take care of their own citizens. Mexico is far from poor - the resources are simply not shared equitably.
The of course you have people like Exxon Mobil who deliberately are shafting Americans and bragging about it like it's their God given right.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 25:
Indeed...
I am just worried about catching Leprosy!!! ;)
Checked my birth certificate again today and it didn't read anything about me being born outside of the United States of America... i.e. I'm not an immigrant of any kind. To make the argument that the U.S. is made up of immigrants and descendants of immigrants is faulty. When does one stop being an immigrant? Two generations? Three generations? Two hundred years? Three hundred years?
What country isn't made up of people who migrated from one location to another? Every country in the western hemisphere is no different than the U.S. A population descended from immigrants and descendants of immigrants. Even the native Americans migrated here.
Tom Mullowney @ 26:
Tom in order to level the global playing field the United States middle class has to be milked dry, abandoned, and allowed to wither. The deal used to be a nice house, family, nice car, and life long employment and now it's a TV, Internet Porn, Two Legs, and 10 or more different jobs over the course of a lifetime. At least thats what it's starting to look like.
Smakc_dab @ 18:
In English it's xenophobia. ;)
scott @ 12:
There were, where I live, mass immigrations in the late 19th/early 20th centuries of, first, Poles, then Dutch. Generations later there are healthy bilingual minorities of both. The funny thing is, each camp contains elements that accuse the other camp of bein' secluded, thus un-American(but the core of the issue isn't really about language- it's the Catholic Poles vs. the Calvinist Dutch) . Ironically, both camps tend to send their kids to their own parochial schools, some of which teach the old languages.
I mean seriously. When is the last time you hear a candidate talking about the American Dream?
They can't, because they would have to say, "Everyone under my administration will be guaranteed no permanent employment, decent wages, affordable health care, a pension, or even a place to live. But if your willing to work hard and take on debt you'll have a Plasma TV, all the Internet Porn you ever wanted, a steady supply of Pizza and beer, and all the sports you can watch."
Tom Doff @ 15:
"gommbah"?
My family came from Sicily, settled in Brooklyn and then moved to Vegas where I was born.
Never heard of "goombah" or "getting made in the mob".
There is no mafia.
Geez.
Scott, as an educated (well sort of) person, I would learn the language of the country I was moving to, but if you look at the education level of many of the illegal immigrants who come here...hmmmmm, how to put this, I would bet the more educated you are, the more likely you are to assimilate. But if you're poor and hungry and you risk life and limb to get here, you may not be able to read and write your own language, let alone learn a new language, all while trying to hide from the authorities. My Oma, never learned English very well, she was 65 when she came here. She never attended school. My mom, learned English, she was younger and educated, well at least she learned to read and write Romanian, Hungarian, and German, then English when she moved here. Again, it's the poor and uneducated get fucked over.
DLC @ 29:
Well, yer immigrant ancestors are still yer immigrant ancestors.
And think about this: the European settlers to what became the USA didn't go outta their way to learn Iroquois, Shawnee or Cherokee, did they? What nerve!
#32 - The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe in it ;-)
Personally, I believe that English should be made the national language. The only reason I take that position is because of the importance of communication. When you don't have one unifying form of communication then miscommunication can occur. With miscommunication, disasters follow soon after.
How many people work in a office where managers try to communicate important information but there isn't one standard line? Sometimes it may come by phone, sometimes it may come by fax, sometimes it may come in the mail, sometimes it will be via e-mail. A lot of information is lost that way so everyone who should receive the message does not. If you know that it will come one consistent way, every single time, then it's more efficient and effective.
In terms of a unifying language, it is even more critical that we are all on the same page. I would actually encourage every U.S. citizen to learn a second language so we're not so ignorant about the rest of the world. But the primary language has to be English. Being that the hispanic population will continually grow within the United States, I believe we have to put the emphasis now on learning English or we'll be forced to adapt to two languages. I can only imagine the civil strife that will take place when this occurs. I, personally, would like to avoid it if at all possible.
Mister Anderson @ 37:
Tensions already are reaching the boiling point.
Learning a new language is hard, conservatives aren't into doing anything hard. People that they can't understand also make them paranoid.
Notes on Nationalism
May, 1945 - George Orwell
You must have an other, a boogie man, someone or something to be against in order rally people into Nationalism.
--------------
Which is exactly what extremist politics do, be them left wing or right wing. And, exactly what many of you do, with that whole everyone besides us is a bigot attitude.
Anyway, English IS the official language of the United States. We don't need a law to specify that. It always has been.
If an immigrant can't show any effort to learn how to converse with us, they should turn around and go back to wherever they came from.
It's not our responsibility to adapt to immigrants, they adapt to us. That's the deal and it's not negotiable.
Mister Anderson @37
(with a nod to uncle joe @25)
I used to have dealins at a met packin' plant. The management and foremen didn't seem to be fluent in Spanish, but they knew enough words to direct the Spanish speakers (who worked for peanuts).
And if the Hispanic population will continue to grow why don't we, rather than save the English languge(and ain't we doin' an awesome job with that, bee-yotches), all learn Spanish? I mean, it's inevitable, right?
uncle joe is right. Corporatists don't speak English or Spanish. They speak the language of Capital. Ther are no tenses, only + and -.
Reality @ 40:
Holy shit! You are fluent in NewSpeak. Way to twist the words of a socialist, an anti-nationalist.
What a concept. Obviouisly a nation with more than one recognized official language would remain primitive and backward. It would disintegrate under the internal pressures, and never rise to acceptance as a major global influence...
http://tinyurl.com/p9sep
In world history America is analogous to a rather petulant, irrational, and sometimes violent teenager. We have a choice to make, accept our proper role in the global community... or be spanked. The Age of Empire has been outgrown by most of the free world, yet America clings to this antiquated, destructive notion to our detriment and sorrow. To clarify my position, I am totally against a free market (as defined by corporate America and the scavengers that enable them), but heartily endorse and back a fair market. Laissez faire capitalism is ONLY beneficial to the top of the food chain, who will generate profits in any way they can including human lives.
As for the immigration issues concerning our neighbors to the south. We are reaping what we have sown since the Spanish-American war. If the United States had engaged in helping our neighbors as equals in the Western Hemisphere, instead of letting corporate interest determine our Latin American foreign policy, things would be much different. The sins of the past always return to haunt us.
Wraith D'Ethereal @ 43:
Switzerland is very STRICT in their rules of admittance to citizenship, the amount of people they allow to become residents-citizens, and the rules of civil behavior. A big difference from a no rules open the floodgates policy. You really have to earn your right to become a Swiss Citizen. I know, because my close friend moved to Switzerland through a marriage but he still had a hard grind to go through to become a full fledged Swiss.
rduke @ 11:
Don't forget the best food ever, and all that style!!
This is my whole point (I keep making) about America being an island unto itself. Even when you show the weather on TV, it never escapes this viewer that Canada and Mexico don't exist. Like outside the US border is a void no one wants to know about, maybe we don't even get weather.
And everything is up-to-the-second. History is completely forgotten. I live in Korea (now) and they have ledgers of their family history going back a thousand years. In other places of the world, people never forget. (I suspect the Middle East is one of those.)
And yes, people assume non-English speakers are somehow stupid, but why??? I'm sure many Koreans think I'm stupid because I don't speak their language. How's that for a reverse situation. It's an easy trap to fall into, so don't. People the world over have brains just as good as yours.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
So? What's that have to do with forcing people to learn English. If you're in Mexico they don't care if you don't learn Spanish. Its your decision and you personally will live with the economic consequences.
We should do the same. Why should we care if some don't want to learn English?
#41 - Andy K
There's more to society than meat packing. To require government officials, law enforcement, medical workers, teachers, so on and so forth to learn a second language (even a few words) isn't feasible. I actually don't believe it will happen naturally and I don't believe this issue has reached a boiling point. The average American has not been forced to compromise on this issue yet in any way, shape or form. The minute the average American goes into their work place and are told they HAVE to learn "a few words" of Spanish to compromise with non-English speaking co-workers, then you will see the issue reach a boiling point. The minute the average American face a lack of professional opportunities because they are not billingual, then this issue will reach a boiling point. And quite frankly, this is not a immigrant versus American issue. Most American-born hispanics are for English being the primary language. And that coincides with most minority groups.
I'm saying this as a person who believes it's the right thing to do to give amnesty to the 12 million illegal immigrants who are here because we knowingly led them here in the first place because of the economic benefits. But if I'm pushed, like most Americans, to compromise on this language issue, then we all know there will be a strong push back. Regardless of where you stand on the illegal immigration issue, we all know that the issue of English being the primary language is not a issue that the vast majority of Americans will not compromise. This nation still hasn't successfully assimilated Blacks into the system, so how will it work to assimilate a lower class who does not speak the common language? When you think long-term about the collective good, stability and security of this nation, trying to integrate a two-language system is one step beyond "unity" in my opinion.
The early history of what is now the United States was Spanish, not English.
L.A. Confidential @ 44:
Switzerland is barely the size of Vermont and New Hampshire combined. No comparison.
I'm an immigrant and I can tell youall how difficult it is to come to a foreign land without knowing the language and learn it and in the meantime make a living. I'm still learning of course, I will the rest of my life, the difference between me and other immigrants, possibly most of them is that i have an education under my belt. You americans expect that people who have minimal education or no education at all should be obligated to learn english while working their asses off picking up strawberries or tomatoes or taking care of your children or cleaning your houses for almost nothing and always thretened with deportation.
This is not about immigration, this is about plain and simple racism, and fear that this country will become a second Mexico, but do you know what? if this country goes to hell it will not be because of the immigrants as certain politicians such as the ineffable clown Tancredo want to make you all believe, it will be because of the greed of the elite, the corporations, those same politicians, the military-war machine, etc, etc...and because of the american people that were not capable to see the real enemy and to dowhat they should have which is toturn the TV off, don't care about Paris Hilton and american idol at least for one day and go VOTEwith consciousness, that's why i became an american citizen, so i can vote for all those who cannot and are anyway affected by the desicions made in DC.
Because of racism you NEVER learned Italian? Never, ever? Every time you try to sign up for an Italian class now racist people stop you? And you cannot learn any other language? Come on, John.
...And while I agree the Republicans are responsible for the immigration bill not passing, lets not forget even our newest Dems like Virginia's Jim Webb (D) and Missouri's Claire McCaskill (D) also voted no on the bill.
Don Quijote @ 51:
Could not agree more. This is racism. And it's an insidious racism propelled by John Tanton, who founded the major anti-immigration groups both overtly and covertly, and he's been at it for 25 years. He wants the population of the US to go from 300 million to 150 million, he wants only white people here, no Catholics (despises them for some reason), zero population and zero immigration. And he funds these groups. THIS IS THE GO-TO GUY for Lou Dobbs and his band of jejeune producers who can't research accurately to save their lives. This is how Tanton thinks: note the 1986 date.
YeahRight @ 52:
It's not the same as learning it before you're five years old. I shouldn't have to point that out to you. If Norwegian high school students (who are the brightest in the world as a group according to the organization that tests and tracks these things) have to learn five languages to graduate from school, what's wrong with this big braggart country of ours? We're number 15 on the bright-kids list, BTW. American students are routinely laughed at for being stupid by the callous competitors in Belgium when they hold these annual tests. Canadians are #6 or 8. Danes, Swedes, Slovenians, and Germans hold the other top spots.
What's wrong learning Mandarin Chinese, French, Spanish, and Farsi when you're six years old?
I'm so sorry to see the left using talking points and propaganda, not to mention labeling all opposition to their viewpoint as racism, in the same way Rove has used these tactics. This issue is quite complex and people have different valid views. One thing that is not debatable about it is the fact that we are not talking the legal immigration our forebears followed, but ILLEGAL entry.
It's just a stupid policy to allow foreign people to break our laws and condone it. You can't bash Bush and Cheney for ignoring the law when it's inconvenient for them and then reward milliions of hispanics for doing the same.
It isn't racism to desire a rational legal and governmental system for your country and society.
hareli,
I agree that it is not the same thing, and learning at a younger age it much easier and better (I regret that my bilingual parents never taught me Spanish). However, I am only pointing out that John's claim that he never learned to speak Italian cannot be solely attributed to the racism his grandparents experienced.
My parents could not afford tennis lessons for me as a child, and that is certainly one reason I can not play today, but the real reason is that I have never made the effort to go out and learn. Oh, and I made sure I learned Spanish in college.
#55 kaT
I couldn't agree more. It's racist to say that Americans don't have a right to their culture. This country has allowed (and even imported) different races and cultures across the globe since 1492. That means over 500 years worth of settlers and immigrants have come together to speak one common language. To change that now for one particular group is irresponsible to me. In France you speak Fench. In Germany you speak German. In Italy you speak Italian. I'm not saying that other languages should be outlawed, I'm saying that there should only be one common language that is officially recognized by the State. Meaning, those who do not speak that language have to compromise when they enter this country and not vice-versa.
I don't care if you're White, Black, Latin, Asian, Middle Eastern, Martian or a talking dinosaur. I don't believe not wanting to compromise the language of my nation is racist. I believe that it is fair.
# 49 - Before the language here was Spanish, there were many native American languages. But the Spanish wiped them out.
#51 - it's racist to favor one group of poor people over every other group of poor people? Should we open our doors to everyone on earth who wants to live here?
kaT @ 55:
OK. The who's fault is it? Those not enforcing the laws, which have been in place for decades if not a century. But the recent froth has been directed at those trying to get in. And it's not everyone who's trying to get in. Only the Mexicans. Because Lou Dobbs has been banging the Tanton bell about it for four years, and inaccurately, I might add. First, it's 3 million Mexicans. (2003) Now the screech is up to 30 million. (2007) Figures manufactured straight out of Mother Goose for effect. THEY'RE AN ARMY! THEY'RE INVADING US! THEY WANT TO STEAL CALIFORNIA! THEY'RE STEALING OUR COUNTRY! THEY'RE BRINGING LEPROSY! THEY'RE BRINGING 100 MILLION TONS OF DRUGS!
If the issue is the illegality, the umm-yer-bad argument du jour, then it's the law enforcement officers who should be raked over the coals. Ever been to an ICE office? They swat flies with immigration files.
You'll notice the 5.25 million of the 12 million illegals are not identified by nationality. No Swedes, French, Russians. Only the 6.75 Mexicans. Yes, it's racism. Because Tanton, if you'll scroll up to my previous posts and read about him, dont like de darkies. That includes Mexicans, Sephardim, anything with a brown skin. That's why he is such a hit with the KKK and the likes of Frosty Wooldridge. Dobbs gets indignant that he's accused of racism. But he regularly uses the Center for Immigration Studies people on his show and that's a 100% Tanton organization: founded and funded.
Years ago, I read a study done by an animal behaviorist/scientist, Dr. Whatshisface. (Sorry,can't remember his name.) He did a study with rats in cages. He put 2 rats in together, they did fine, but they had a little less to eat. He put 3 rats in together. They did not quite attack each other, but they weren't too damned friendly, either. He put 4 rats in together and one was killed by the other three.
In many parts of this country, people are living way too close to so many others. Crowded conditions do not make good neighbors no matter where you are from.
Even in Maine, we are seeing fields and forests destroyed for more and more condos, apartments, private homes, big box stores. And everything is being tarred over like a big effing parking lot.
There are too damned many people. I don't care where anyone is from, if there isn't enough space to live and wilderness left to get away from it all, sure people are going to attack each other. Not enough room to breath free, not enough clean water to drink, not enough healthy food, not enough jobs that pay a living wage, no vacation time, constant worry about health care costs, loss of transportation -- and the damned dumps are closing because there is not enough space to put all the garbage we produce.
Does it make some people feel more powerful by attacking the weaker among us? Sure it does. Those people hate themselves inside and they act like schoolyard bullies.But the vast majority of people see more and more people clogging up the cities and highways, overcrowding the schools, and they react with anger. I can't blame them. There is a limit to what we humans can tolerate.
I'm glad I won't live to see what this once beautiful country will look like in 100 years, or even 50, or 20. I feel sorry for the children. Where once the world was our oyster and we could roam the fields and woods, children will become afraid of outdoors and afraid of Nature. They will never know the freedom of childhood, whatever race they might be.
YeahRight @ 56:
YeahRight, the racism the Italians faced was fierce. Reading NYT accounts from that time period will tell you about it. It was REALLY ugly, and they didn't want their kids suffering from what they did. The Italians took the heat off the Irish, who had the same thing for about 50 years. The NYT classifieds show it: "Irish need not apply."
It's the ole pecking order thing. Human beings always seem to need one group to cast aspersions on. Wops were it at the beginning of the 20th C. They couldn't even get police protection, which is why the Don-a-Block got created. Here's what they thought at the time.[graphic]
Mister Anderson @ 57:
The first language spoken here in the United States was Spanish, not English. The USA was discovered by the Spaniards. (1513: Florida) And Spanish was the national language for over 100 years. A shipload of people showing up from England in 1620 and landing and building a life in a tiny portion of the US did not make this country an English country until the Scots and Irish showed up in the 18th C.
When only one party speaks another language make it difficult to teach the child that language. It happened to me as well of a girl friend that had the same trouble. We tried and were frustrated because our kids were speaking gibberish. Ours was French from Belgium and France.
English has become the languages the most spoken in the world. All Europe in is an example as most young adults does speak it.
Why do we spend money for people who do not want to learn? Every time I call and utility, I have to push one for English speaking? Does that mean that on my bill I am paying for another language personal?
As a legal independent immigrant and very happy the amnesty bill died accept that people who breaks the law get legitimacy as abiding citizen! No way, let the law put 20 years ago enforced. I also think that we have to change the born in USA makes you an American by birth to only Americans parents.
The reality is that as we do not teach to limits births we are a planets in deep problem. The poor reproduce at a faster pace. They produce babies even when they cannot even feed the ones that are dying in their hands. This does not make any sense!
A friend of mine went to China, an architect that has been all over the world. Says it was unbelievable.
He said that in ten years they will be the number one.
Bush has no god. With the Supreme Court he has destroyed us.
Welcome to hell!
John,
your post is dead-on ... but it's not too late for you to learn Italian! i've been studying on and off since marrying my Italian wife six years ago. it's a beautiful language.
hareli @ 62:
I meant the 1800s, which was the 19C. They were imported to seed the South. Scots for bankers. Irish to be the maids.
OK - let's get to the point. The GOP wants cheap labor. The Dems want votes (they think). We can argue all day about the merits of charity and compassion vs law enforcement and cultural values, but that's the bottom line coming from our "leaders".
I'm sure everyone here is sincere in his/her beliefs and statements, but those of us trying to work and take care of our families don't need any more competition, regardless of it's source. Perhaps that sounds cold to some of you, but if you don't take care of your family, do you really think either party will?
not stupid @ 63:
Of course they will be, We went over there with our technology and know-how to get cheap product, trained them in our ways, and gave them our designs. The Chinese signed contracts for five years and after that, said screw you. Because they could make it themselves. Now we plan on outsourcing 50 million of our top white-collar jobs to India by 2013. That does not include China's figures. Our stupidity, our greed, gave this country away.
Those 50 million white-collar jobs would represent a much higher return to our tax base had those jobs stayed here. We lost the spending power of those jobs. We lost the taxes. We lost the productivity. We lost the brain power. And we left our own highly skilled workers bereft. THAT'S the real travesty. Not this phony anti-immigration shit we've witnessed recently. This phony self-destructive xenophobia drummed up by an anchorman who gets a rise in ratings and salary as a result. So who's being used here.
The US cannot be compared to France or Belgium, countries whose size fits into our back-pocket. Xenophobia serves them. Not the USA.
I'm an immigrant too. I got my citizenship in a heartbeat.
Tom Mullowney @ 66:
No. But the threat, if you're not an outdoor worker, is outsourcing. One in 4 jobs is now outsourced. That's what people should be screeching about. At last when you get your salary, you go out in your community and spend your money at home. And you pay taxes into US coffers.
We lose ALL OF THAT with outsourcing.
Tom,
Did you know that Texas would be broke if it weren't for the payroll and sales tax paid by illegal aliens? The comptroller did a study of 2005, first of its kind. $17.x billion was the figure they brought in. Without it, Texas would be broke. Ditto the Social Security Fund. Illegals place billions into it and Medicare every year that they will never see. $187 billion since 1986. Social Security figures.
I refuse to speak Arabic with my parents when we're in public just to avoid the stares and the condescending tone we sometimes get, especially after 9/11. Perhaps one day I'll grow a spine and have some pride.
Either way it beats living in Israel as a second class citizen and being treated like a black man in 1960s Mississippi (minus the lynching).
Come on, John.
Don´t fool yourself. I´d say you never really wanted to speak Italian. I´m German, brought up in Germany by German speaking parents and I´m living in Germany. My English sounds a bit clumsy, I know that, but I´m capable of reading and understanding even Arthur Silber´s sometimes quite complex essays or, for example, the Congressional Oversight Manual because I want it. So get off your lazy ass and stop whining. Otherwise I´m considering to call you a liar.
"Because of that I never learned Italian and it often upset me as I grew up and appreciated what a gift it would have been to speak a second language."
It´s no gift to speak a foreign language, it´s work.
Progressives used to be against illegal immigration, and immigration in general. Pure and simply, it hurts the working class. It wasn't until someone came up with the idea that protecting the working class against the flood of cheap labor was racist that the progressives turned to the side of the conservatives. It is amazing that Tancredo protects the working class for racist reasons, while the Ted Kennedy's protect corporate interests for "civil rights" reasons.
I wish the progressives would go back to protecting the working man.
L.A. Confidential @ 32:
Like it or not, as sad as it is, this is VERY TRUE !! This IS the American Dream of now for the masses ! Immigrant, or indigenous.
"" What country isn’t made up of people who migrated from one location to another? Every country in the western hemisphere is no different than the U.S. A population descended from immigrants and descendants of immigrants.""
Absolutely NOT TRUE, at all - there is NO OTHER melting pot of peoples w/out strong generational roots as we have in the US/ Canada. Until the latest legal massive cross-border movement within the emerging European Union (still far from anything resembling the US), people there (and most other places outside of the US) lived in the same place, or very close by, for CENTURIES ! They could become a part of another country b/c of the moved borders, but that was it. Traditionally, Europeans spoke multiple languages, even the socially lower groups: economy, often survival, required it. Upper classes studied abroad, spoke often several langauges fluently, French ruled after Latin was chased away. With exception of very few, once Latin was eliminated in the Middle Ages, since about Renaissance (14-17th cent), each nation had ONE official language ! The language could be changing over centuries (French vs. German in border regions; Lithuanian vs. Polish once the Commonwealth was established in 1569, till 1795, the 3rd partition of Poland, gone till 1918, w/Wilson's "points" in Treaty of Versailles). In Lithuania: Russian official language of Soviet occupiers, till ~1990. But, generally population living in the same places - except of small numbers that emigrated mostly to the US/Canada.
Historically, only the aristocracy/nobility were free in all nations to move freely (even just travel!), and to own property. Without property, and being a peasant/serf/slave, the person could NOT / did NOT have ANY choice !! Was 'signed to the land' of the landowner ! Industrial revolution of the 19th C. produced the professionals, and, poor proletariat in the cities.
W/out going back to the Roman times, in the modern history, Napoleon was the first to understand ~ 1800's the power of immigration (economic and political/for personal freedoms), and 'democracy': pressed to recruit many soldiers/officers to his Legions to go on with wars, he officially declared: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" (liberty/freedom, equality, brotherhood) - including the serfs from the already conquered nations. It did work, French formidable bureaucracy awarded them the new status, making them equal w/French FREE (still often poor/illiterate!) citizens. The Napoleonic Code, or Code Napoléon of 1804, solidified these edicts, and established the organized rule of law in most of continental Europe ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code
(we inherited the messy Brit system, allowing for many shenanigans we suffer from .. luckily we have the written Constitution, absent in the UK, although ours is non-existent w/current mob in the WH and around Co-prez Cheney)
As of today, in the hills of Hispaniola (Dominican Republic/Haiti) there are blonde/blue eyed families living, not aware of much history, but, w/'Frenched' Polish last names: the descendants of Napoleon's Polish Legion who in tens of thousands joined French, to fight occupiers for "Your Freedom, and, ours". Poland was off the map, partitioned among Russia, Prussia, Austri