Wow, the White House is really struggling to find a parallel that lowers our expectations and puts them in a good light…unfortunately, a better grasp on history and political science might be helpful.
BBC (h/t C&L Commenter):
The head of US forces in Iraq, Lt Gen David Petraeus, has told the BBC that fighting the insurgency is a “long term endeavour” which could take decades.[..]
(H)e warned that US forces were engaged in a “tough fight” which will get “harder before it gets easier”.
His comments come as US calls for a rapid troop withdrawal gather strength.
Gen Petraeus was keen to emphasise that the ongoing unrest in Iraq is not something he expects to be resolved overnight.
“Northern Ireland, I think, taught you that very well. My counterparts in your [British] forces really understand this kind of operation… It took a long time, decades,” he said.
Here’s the problem of using the Northern Ireland analogy: For how long did a band of less than a 1000 IRA militants keep peace at bay? The Troubles were in the late ’60s, and that wasn’t the beginning. We’re not dealing with a few hundred insurgents in Iraq. Also note in the interview (the hyperlink in the above article), Petraeus keeps conflating the issue by talking about al Qaeda, which by all non-White House accounts, is not responsible for most of the violence.
The thing that I’ve never got a clear understanding (and for which I blame the media for not asking the right questions) is when is it that we know we’ve won? By definition, since we are occupying their country, anyone who fights against us is an insurgent. Do we know it’s time to quit when there are no more insurgents (and what does that mean for Iraqi population)? Is it when there is no more sectarian strife? In the 5,000 year history of the region–aside from when under the thumb of dictators–has there ever been a time with no sectarian strife?
One Trackback To “Petraeus Says Iraq Will Be “Decades” Long; Likens Struggle To Northern Ireland“
september means forever in cavemanese
As you’ve noted Nicole one determination for winning according to their thinking is the complete annihilation of the Iraqi citizenry. But of course their preferred ‘win’ is when every drop of oil has been removed and placed into Exxon and BP’s hands.
iraq is like vietnam, er, no, like korea, er, no, like ireland, er, no, like crete, uh, like japan, uh, like germany, troy ?? constantinople ?? the planet the gallacticans had to leave ?? no, no, just like tribbles and the enterprise, yeah, just like that
“The Troubles” started one hell of a lot longer ago than the ’60s. Try about 400 years of strife. Plus, what ended the N. Ireland strife was the point at which the British stopped letting their knee jerk with every violent act of some fringe group and began to focus on diplomacy, insisting that violence was not going to stop the peace.
It stops when the side with all the power begins to realize that reacting to every single provocation makes them (us) easily manipulatable by a very small group of angry people and that finally admitting that we can do nothing about them militarily (i.e. “growing up”) is when we’re going to finally acknowledge that this mess is of our making by going in there in the first place and that our leaving is the only way the endgame can finally happen (messy as that will be).
Olympia Snowe (Washington) just broke with Bush and said she wants legislation to begin the withdrawal of troops.
I also read in the Washington Post that some Republican Senators are concerned that Bush is trying to drag this thing out until April of 2008 where he will actually start blaming the military for the failures in Iraq. I would like to say that idea is insane, but I don’t put anything past the Bush administration at this point.
I think it’s past time we started pointing out the similarities between Hitler and his final days in the bunker and Bush in his final years in the White House. Bush is not Hitler, but both of these guys have some psychological issues when it comes to accepting the facts that are based on reality.
Your points are well taken. It will be surprising if the U.S. government will ever admit that it cannot “win” in Iraq since the Iraqis, like their Vietnamese counterparts, will fight until their dying breath until the less than benevolent presence of the United States military have finally left their soil. But as others have pointed out, it is doubtful if the U.S., with the military bases that they have in Iraq, have any intention of leaving that country.
“For how long did a band of less than a 1000 IRA militants keep peace at bay?”
Well they were just one side in a mutli sided conflict, but I think I get what your saying.
If the Northern Ireland analogy is followed the US govt will be negotiating with Al Qaeda before long, and rushing to get out of the place.
These are the signs I put up yesterday:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....today.html
12 billion a month for this fisasco. It is going to be hard to sustain that.
there was NEVER an exit strategy because they never intended to leave.
Sorry, Olympia Snowe is from Maine.
the endless war for endless peace continues. But history has shown us that you just can’t bring peace to people by waging war on their cities and towns…..the resistance will continue.
Maybe that’s just what they want?
The time to end this madness is now. Not in 10 years or next year. Today….not tomorrow. now.
Some follow up reading:
“Top-Ten Reasons to Get out of Iraq Now”
http://www.populistamerica.com.....f_iraq_now
Northern Ireland?!!!
So he sees a group loyal to the US Govt fighting off a group (and vice versa) wishing to secede and join with a neighbor state with similar religious conviction and antithetical views to US occupational rule? That neighbor state being Iran?
Now think about it, General…Yeah. Let’s get out now. No reason to stay. ‘Cept for the oil, right John Howard?
Silly Nicole! We’ve won when democracy is flourishing!!
Mister Anderson @ 5:
I’ll believe Snowe when she actually votes for withdrawal. I watched Charlie Gibson tonight. HoJo’s best friend was on(soon to be ex-Senator Susan Collins). She was kinda saying the same thing as Snowe. Actions speak louder than words, Susan.
If Iraq is N. Ireland, which side are we supposed to be?
General Betrayus is just one more traitor to the uniform, the flag and the Constitution who should be at the end of a rope.
Like Northern Ireland? How about more like hell and we created it.
now now,, everyone knows that the insurgency is in its last throes!
also i was reading that iraq/ afganastian wars are costing 12 billion a month.
If the white house were smart, and smart being the operative word here, that 12 billion could be used for alternate forms of energy right?
But then the big oil folks and thier lap dog lobbiyst would be out of a job.
And these are the signs I’ve put up since noon.
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....-noon.html
Question from bush:
Pandora, how do we close your box now that we have opened it? We don’t like what we have released.
What if the President asked everyone to enlist? What if he went on the air and said:
“I don’t want to have a draft, but we don’t have enough troops. We need 500,000 more troops NOW to win this thing. I won’t let my successor take on this burden and they way they are talking, they will leave. In my mind leaving is losing. So I’m asking every able bodied man and woman to enlist in the armed forces. If you are between 17 and 42 you can enlist in the army. And I’m going to ask the military contractors to leave Blackwater and related firms and re-enlist in the armed forces.”
See last thread.
So.. bring back the troops and suit up Bush, Dick and Tony Snow. Scooter can drive the humvie and Fred Fielding can file briefs with the “Iraqi President”. It would be like a updated version of “F-Troop”.
Film it.. America needs a good TV comedy these days.
It’s a win-win!!
Bushes Empire Burlesque of Terror
Call it EFF’d TROOP!
Quite interesting after reading some history on the 3rd Reich how many of the top generals in Germany went along with the Fuhrer, not because they were ideologues, but because they thought it would be good for their careers. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Chimpy gets us in this $12 BILLION a month clusterfuck…and come January, 2009 gets to jet back to Crawford….with not a care in the world.
I pray there actually is karma…because Chimpy is about to get his in spades!
enaud @ 9:
No problem, this only has to go on long enough for Dick Cheney to become a billionaire?
The run up in Halliburton stock, and his Oil futures, based on 100 bucks a barrel by early spring of 2008 should accomplish that around Dec of that year.
L.A. Confidential @ 22:
Not a fucking chance in hell.
“which could take decades.[..]” is your assertion, not his
Blue, sorry to sink your boat. Patreaus took this gig knowing it would end his career. He was one of the more respected generals and was blown off in the early stages of the war. He knew this was a hail mary pass that stood no chance of ‘winning’, waaaaaay too late. Please read wikipedia’s bio on him. He was our last, great hope. AND having him out there being truthful about the true costs of the war and it’s length probably pisses Bush off.
I wonder what Iraq Veterans have to say…
http://www.ivaw.org/faq
http://www.ivaw.org/bustourblog
http://www.ivaw.org/bustourphotos
and… Where did Cheney visit recently..
..with another Desperate one to defend this illegal occupation… Kagan
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....n-success/
This war is just a bust all the way around. We have to get out of there. The neoCons need a ground war to claim the war powers and they are determined to get control of Iraq so they can take the oil.
The Truth Hurts @ 30:
I’ll tell you what my neoCon brother said, “They’ll take MY daughters over my dead body.” See, these people think it’s okay for other people to make sacrifices for the war they support, but they aren’t going to sacrifice anything.
al-Blarney!
That analogy is WAY too big of a stretch for the unwashed masses in Wingnut Limbaugh/O’Reilly-ville…
Better compare it to “Dukes of Hazzard” where the bad Sherrif (like Sadaam) kept getting tricked by the clever boys in the Muscle Car…Bush is like the Mechanic that keep that car running…
Something like that, it’s not important that it’s a bad analogy, the idea is to change the subject to something else?
Keep it real simple and real stupid for the 28%’ers….
Just the same as EXCEPT that Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain in the first place… Ruled under British law. Whereas Iraq was on the opposite side of the planet and the United States had no business interfering with their sovereignty.
But, other than that, they are just the same…
EXCEPT…
Ad nauseam…
The Truth Hurts @ 30:
I was joking. Which doesn’t help either.
I wonder what a Reservist Fighting His Fifth War Call-Up has to say…
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24485
How much are you and I and our families giving to all of the neocons corporations that Bush and Cheney put in place, while they ruin our country, drain our treasury and our children’s future..
1-2 billion a month… No - $12 Billion a Month.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24484
Michael Moore is currently tearing Wolfe Blitzer a new one over the war and CNN’s general misinformation…I hope that clip gets posted.
The IRA received millions in donations from US citizens under the guise of Noraid, which of course was a front for the Provisional Irish Republican Army (a terrorist organization).
Time to start locking up these Dead-enders, these betrayers of everything a human being aspires to be.
Smiths Go to Washington, I agree with everything you posted, Trust me…but it’s the American people that voted Bush into power and then allowed themselves to be bamboozled into the Iraq War. Hell, I KNEW THERE WERE NO WMD’s and I’m a friggin’ housewife. WE SENT THOSE kids to Iraq because we were too concerned with Paris Hilton and girls gone wild. But people have died, a lot of people, and our guys are still there. But don’t blame them, blame the American people.
michael @ 10:
I could not have said it better my self.
I still don’t understand why Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, and Rove are not charged with war crimes. It’s the very same thing as if someone screamed “fire!” in a movie theathre and people died trying to get out of the theathre.
Betray-US is just a mouthpiece for this criminal occupation. Fuck him and the camel he rode in on.
These are amateurs, Donnie.
For these impotent, money hungry, power drunk bastards, an endless war is better than an endless orgasm.
He looks real manly in that helmet.
That’s what counts.
Right?
It’s a little late in the game to be giving realistic assessments about the duration. It would be like waiting an hour to tell your overweight gym buddy that the fun run you made him enter is actually a marathon.
Jo, seriously, chill, dude. You’re offending a lot of liberal democrats in uniform. I’m trying like hell to get them to read C&L and when you say stuff like that it just sends them back the other way. Christ, I’m working here…do some research on Patreaus before you talk smack about him. He would have never gone into Iraq. He was in Vietnam and saw what a mess that was.