David Shuster Dismantles President Bush's Viet Nam Rhetoric
By Logan Murphy Tuesday Aug 21, 2007 7:47pm
This evening on "Hardball" MSNBC's David Shuster started off the hour with a dead on debunking of President Bush's rhetoric from his speech earlier today in which proclaimed that a U.S. pullout in Iraq would have the same consequences as our withdrawal from Viet Nam. The president says that America's departure sparked the Khmer Rouge's murderous rule, but as Shuster points out, the killings started well before the U.S. pulled out and that it was a mistake to go into Cambodia in the first place as we only made the violence worse. As for Bush's claim that pulling out of South East Asia emboldened America's enemies, Shuster had this to say:
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Shuster: "...But he wasn't talking about our enemies at the time, including communists and the Soviet Union during the cold war. Instead, President Bush spoke of Osama Bin Laden who mentioned Viet Nam a few years ago in declaring America would be weak in fighting al Qaeda. ...Bin Laden, however, is running al Qaeda from somewhere along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, not from inside Iraq.
John Amato: It's time MSNBC gives David his own show and have him guest host "Meet the Press." They can plug him in after Olbermann to capitalize on his ratings or have him replace the laughable--no ratings--Tucker Carlson. Tweety's show has problems too...
Bush is an idiot. Who cares what he says.
Schuster is the real deal, SO much better than Matthews that it's laughable. By all means, give this bright, astute, incisive guy his own show NOW, and let the REAL hardball begin.
Good report. Remember when the news sounded like the news?
Look at Schuster go. Without hearing President Shit for Brains speech, I have to say that Schuster did a pretty good job of pointing out what a jack ass the President is.
bush even mentioning vietnam is unfuckingbelievable. what an amazingly ignorant individual he is. nice job david shuster.
I agree with John. David Shuster would be much improvement Tucker Carlson, and or tweety.
Anyone got a contact email address to rattle MSNBC's cage WRT getting Shuster a slot?
And a bonus for dropping "Softball" ... and an even BIGGER bonus for dropping that "I-Can-Tie-A-Bowtie-Faster-Than-You-Can" prig?
Its unfucking believable, the Khmer Rouge only existed because Nixon & Kissinger destabilized the legitimate government in Cambodia by illegally carpet bombing their country!!! A fact that ultimately led to Congress growing a set of Balls but tragically also led to the deaths of millions of innocent people.
Make No Mistake, This Neo-Con Regime is one of the worst plagues humanity has ever been made to suffer.
I completely agree, David Shuster should be given his own show - preferably in the one hour slot prior to Olbermann. A two hour block of serious investigative journalism and sane commentary certainly would be a welcome part of my day. Tucker's unwatchable and Tweety isn't much better.
I've got to agree that Shuster would make a great MTP host. It'd be great to see someone in that seat actually do a legitimate interview instead of a "press appearance".
Get f**kin' real. General Electric is not in the journalism business.
ckerst @ 1:
Seriously... who even listens to Bu$h any more except to be amazed at what a total jacka$$ the fool is?
The Dangers of a Cornered George Bush
http://consortiumnews.com/2007/072707a.html
“Citizens must accordingly set aside White House propaganda statements and carefully consider the advisability of returning to the White House an individual who has demonstrably experienced psychotic episodes during his tenure in the White House, and who has presented no convincing evidence of remission.”
George W. Bush: A CIA Analysis
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=11481
I am constantly amazed that anyone, anywhere cheers and applauds when Shrub gets up to talk. It is even more shocking when it's something like the VFW.
Can you say "Grasping at straws"
How can this friggin' ass-hole even utter Vietnam in any sentence let alone in the manner he is doing now, when he did everything to stay out of the war.
"IN OTHER WORDS GEORGIE" (he might understand it if I speak like him) had you and all the other rich, spoiled pricks gone to Vietnam instead of being that "Fortunate Son", we might've won Vietnam....but I doubt it.........If we couldn't win it with brave men, we couldn't do it with MICE!
How could this administration possibly think that comparing Iraq to Vietnam is going to help their case? I guess Rove really was the brains; he's only gone for two weeks and look what happens.
Why is it that the little toads like Tucker, get their shows? The smarmy ass licker whose father was one of those tending to the poor bastard Libby's money committee for trial. Tucker still believes that PLAME was NOT a covert agent. He says its "bullshit". Google his excellent choice of words.
Can one imagine Schuster hosting MEET THE PRESS? He'd tear off Cheney's balls in front of millions. Orrin Hatch would try to reach over and punch Dave in the face after Schuster takes off his too. That would put the word out to career politicians and sycophants that they can't come on the show and get their asses licked anymore. There are now gunsights aimed at the black heart of the conservatives and neo con freaks.
NOW THATS ENGTERTAINMENT!!
Gekke @ 8:
Now this is the history I've learned, but then I've only taken a graduate level seminar on Vietnam taught by a Vietnamese professor who had our class of 12 students read nearly 200 books combined.
Bush is so f*ckin' ignorant.
If you listen to what Bush is saying it sounds to me like Al-Quada might've actually read more about the Vietnam War and the strategies of both militaries (what was successful, what wasn't) more than this Commander-In-Chief and the Pentagon braintrust.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Once again folks.........life is nothing less/more than compensation. What America has in military might, the opponent has had in intelligence to compensate.
Let's face it these people (Bush Administration) will say and do anything to get what they want. No matter how ridiculous or insane it sounds to just about everyone on the planet.
True fanaticism displayed for all to see.
Logan, nice post. My only complaint is your use of the word "debunking" because it's used frequently in the context of the folks on the wrong side of the debate re: JFK and 9/11. (Both the warren report and the official 9/11 report can be easily proven to be utter horse$#!+.)
But that's beside the point. The point is, today's neocons are the same dip$#!+s who told us in the late 60's and early 70's that if we pulled out of Vietnam, communism would have a domino effect in overthrowing the world.
It was a lie, just like the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie, just like the official report on the U.S.S. Liberty incident was a lie.
And just like the argument that we needed to overthrow Cuba to save America was a bull$#!+ lie.
So, yeah, let's get the hell out of Iraq. Dick Cheney told us over a decade ago that this crap wasn't worth very many American lives, and, today, regardless of how rich Dick and his cronies have become, it's still not worth any more of our people's lives.
If the President's misuse of the lessons of Vietnam sounds familiar, it should. After all, just last week 2008 Republican White House frontrunner Rudy Giuliani said virtually the same thing.
"America must remember one of the lessons of the Vietnam War. Then, as now, we fought a war with the wrong strategy for several years. And then, as now, we corrected course and began to show real progress. Many historians today believe that by about 1972 we and our South Vietnamese partners had succeeded in defeating the Vietcong insurgency and in setting South Vietnam on a path to political self-sufficiency. But America then withdrew its support, allowing the communist North to conquer the South...The consequences of abandoning Iraq would be worse."
For the details, see:
"Bush, Giuliani Agree on Iraq-Vietnam Parallels."
LongTooth @ 11:
Agree...but if GE was to give Hardball to Schuster or cancel Fucker Carlson and give that
to Schuster, MSNBC's viewing auidence would, I think, increase substantially, consequently
revenues would increase..I say this from the prespective of NEVER watching Tweety
or Fucker C. because I cannot bear to see/listen to their babble.
Schuster just pulled the Bush up by the roots, put him in wood chipper and used his dumb ass for mulch. I loved home he cut him to pieces by using his own quote for back in '01 when he tried to refute comparisons to Vietnam all so he could turn his dumb ass around years later and try to use it to his benefit.
The one true comparison between Vietnam and Iraq is that in the end we're going to find out the hard way that the best way to have gotten out of either place was to not haven taken our asses there in the first place.
The fact that these clueless neo-cons are now invoking the tragic and needless disaster that was Vietnam indicates that they're in something close to panic mode.
It's truly pathetic, and barely worth comment, but these Stalinist-type attempts to re-write history need to be rebuked; so kudos to Shuster for batting down the most obvious of W's lies and misconceptions.
America better come to grips with the bitter truth about Vietnam, because the only redemption possible for the tens of thousands of names etched on that black granite wall in Washington is as a grim reminder to never again let our young people be sacrificed on the alter of deceit and greed.
We have to keep bringing up Orwell to understand this president. History is meaningless. Today it means one thing, tomorrow another. Facts are a meaningless. Reality is relative. Up is down, left is right, right is wrong. And never bring up what I said yesterday, because it never happened that way. All politics is BLATHER. We live to lie.
People who continue to listen to this fool do so at their own peril.
Shuster is a great report. MSNBC, please replace Tucker or Tweety with him.
The only thing these psychotic neocon chickenhawks learned from Vietnam/Watergate was that they needed to lie better. That's why they spent so much time, $$$ and effort taking control of your media.
That's why your Congress is lined with easily-blackmailed losers like David Vitter and Mark Foley.
But the era of the pasty-white Republican shell-game maestro's just about up, and they all know it. And you bet your @$$ they're circling the wagons. Because they know they're gonna lose, just like Custer know his Supremacist @$$ was toast.
So, comrades and amigos, just keep shouting the truth from the rooftops, and we'll all be partying like Ewoks.
*knew
John Amato: You are "spot on" with the need to replace Tucker "The Bowtie" Carlson. He's become totally irrelevant in the national landscape and lost whatever shred of credibility he may have obliquely had when he danced like a hammer-toed buffoon on "Dancing with the Stars". ewwwww! His show since then has been equally abysmal.
As for Tweety, I think he needs some testing of brain chemicals as he appears to be more attuned to pheromonal influences (aka what after shave one of his idols happens to be wearing) than to anything of substance. His performance as moderator of the Republican Debacle (oops....Debate) was as equally abysmal and incompetent as Tucker's pigeon-toed performance. They've both become irrelevant and hideously ineffective newscasters and are in desperate need of being helped out by being axed from the air.
Q: What's the biggest difference between vietnam and iraq?
A: Bush had a plan to get out of vietnam.
The biggest lie that Bush is portraying is that we fled from Vietnam.
Some very intelligent men in our government finally came to realize that if we were to stem the tide of communism the cost in S.E. Asia would be too great. We instead redoubled our efforts into the European theatre and stopped the Soviet Union in its tracks.
If we had stayed in 'nam as Bush suggests Europe might be speaking Russian today.
okay, this makes me sick to my stomach.
this man and his vp avoided serving in vietnam at all costs, and now he's using the ghosts of all those servicemen to try and justify staying in the war he lied to get us into in the first place.
and iran is next.
and i ask this: why aren't we doing anything? why aren't we protesting? i mean, in big numbers? why aren't we in front of the white house EVERY DAY?
do we really have to wait until they reinstate the draft? can't we start NOW? let's stop this insanity.
WE NEED TO ACT, DON'T WE?!?
Gekke @ 8:
Too right, Gekke. But I guarantee you only 2% of US citizens know this. The correlation between US intervention (or aid) and human rights abuses, not to mention the deaths of millions upon millions around the world is very very starkly evident.
These people are war criminals pure and simple, and for Bush to invoke this period as a lost opportunity??? what a murderous ignorant shithole that man is.
If our mainstream media ever hopes to regain the level of respect the people once had for what they report, they need to bring Truth in Reporting back to the arena. Since BushCo took over, all we get is sanitized, propagandized bull#hit and pure drivel. Most people with even a modicum of intelligence and access to the internet find their news on the net instead and never tune into these Bush propaganda megaphones. We used to call it "payola"....pay and they will "play".....same old/same old. Different times = different tunes. Same old propaganda and fiction.
Even the one guy sitting behind Bush looked like he was thinking, "is he serious?"
For AWOL Bush to even obliquely refer to Vietnam is a sacrilege for those who served bravely and gave up life and limb for that unnecessary war which was the "first big mistake" this country made and from which we should have learned the lesson it provided; of course, we didn't so we have a Vietnam Redux aka Iraq. Mistake to go in; mistake to destroy their country for an unwinnable war of choice....same old/same old. Will we learn it this time or will we need to have it provided for us in Iran - a war which will certainly result in the destruction of this country??
As they say, ...."if one fails to realize and learn the lesson the first time around, it will return - only larger and more devastating - and if they fail to learn the key lesson the second time, the third time may result in their demise"....
Looks like we're standing on that precipitous "brink" of disaster again - right now and unless this fool is impeached, he may yet have another opportunity to tank this country....just like he tanked every business venture he ever touched throughout his pathetic life.
Daryl @ 37:
It was clear to most of this country during the debates that Bush doesn't have a clue about what he is saying when he is not scripted. Even when he IS scripted, he cannot stay with the script and his egomania actually believes that he has the ability to orate intelligently - which, sadly, as we see is one continuous protracted bunch of nonsensical ers, uhs, cutsey barroom talk, and nothing of substance. Every English teacher in this country must be cringing, as all americans do, when they hear this guy attempt to speak.
Today took the cake though and it seems that his synaptic sensors have gone AWOL on him resulting in him saying things which are in direct contrast to what he is trying to sell to the people.
There's nothing more pathetic than someone who is called an "unconscious incompetent" because they simply "don't know that they don't know". This is Quintessential Bush.
As someone said to me recently, "That Bush, Condi and the others can even show their faces in public after the bloody tragedy that is Iraq is hard to understand." That Bush can even mention Vietnam in this light is bizarre.
I want to see a debate on this subject.
Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn
versus GW Bush.
I'd give my left nut to see this.
Then again, perhaps he's finally and totally gone "around the bend". Last month they admitted that he'd been treated for Lyme disease last year which may have been the beginning of his obvious "brain farting" which we've all seen. It's either that or heavy psychotropic drugs for other types of mental disorders.
Can't 1 month go by that Bush does not talk like a god damn fool?!
Mike @ 17:
Agreed. Rove hit some pretty despicable lows over the years, but I have to think even he would've avoided the Iraq-Vietnam argument like the plague.
Ozymandias @ 40:
Many people sitting on death row are sociopaths - which means that they lack the insight necessary (or conscience) to recognize the severity of their criminal activities. This behavior typifies the actions of the Bush Cabal and explains how they can easily puff themselves up in public and act as though they've done absolutely nothing wrong.
They're sociopaths in every sense of the word.
CraigJohnson @ 43:
It's totally embarassing to be an american and realize how the rest of the world (including our own citizenry) is either appalled by his total lack of statesmanship and intelligent speech. And, in answer to your question, I would say that a "minute" can't elapse without this man making a fool out of himself.
Everytime Shuster is on, filling in or doing a superb segment, I email viewerservices@hardball.com and tell them he's the best they have, he needs is own show. I encourage you all to do the same!
veritas @ 46:
....either appalled totally or ROTFLTAO!!
Shuster said 15,000 troops lost in Viet Nam. I listened to the beginning of that video 4 times to be sure.
That's a HUGE mistake. The US lost over 50,000 troops in Viet Nam.
Why would Bush want to end the occupation of Iraq? Bush is clearly one of the greatest Conservative minds of our generation.
The current situation is allowing Bush and Dick, and all their war profiteering cronies to optimize their accumalation of more wealth. A few "noble lies" to accomplish this is ok, because the little people (you) need smarter people like Bush deciding how things are done, and you must not be allowed to interfere with "business".
War profiteering is a proud family tradition in the Bush Crime Family, stretching all the way back to Prescott Bush. So a few 100,000's die, so what, if billions can be stolen. Why do you people hate free market Capitalism.
Lets just cut to the chase. Another tax cut would solve all these problems. Allowing the wealthy to "keep more of their money" would allow them to use that money to "trickle down" in the form of peace and prosperity.
You Libs just don't get it. I'm voting for the very manly Ron Paul so I never have to pay any taxes to sustain our country. I don't care who owns the road in front of my house as long as I don't have to pay too much everytime I leave my driveway.
Daisy
Well, he just may get his wish!
Keith O is going to Sundays on NBC....starting this coming weekend!
Maybe thats the plan?
Does anybody ever watch bush while he speaks???
The dumb fucker can't even convey his own thoughts....he is always reading off of a teleprompter or a fuckin' que card..
What a piece of shit....
Lying moron through and through...
[...] Watch Video [...]
Lets try this again...
http://www.wittycomics.com/29201
CraigJohnson @ 49:
No, he says 58,000.
Again.... because it's important:
Shuster said 15,000 troops lost in Viet Nam. I listened to the beginning of that video 4 times to be sure.
That’s a HUGE mistake. The US lost over 50,000 troops in Viet Nam.
CraigJohnson @ 49:
You're wrong. Schuster definitely said 58,000.
Logan Murphy @ 56:
No dude.... listen again. He says FIFTEEN......not 58.
Ahhh, the coward talks and those ignorant of the Neo cons turn up their hearing aids.
Or do they? Ole shit-fur-brains reads purty good.
CraigJohnson @ 59:
Dude - I made the video, I've listened to it some ten times now. He absolutely says 58.
valleta @ 47:
This is apparently a "bad address", for I tried sending and got an "ERROR" message.
that would be...
http://www.wittycomics.com/comic/29201
Imagine how desperate Bush must be to bring up Vietnam, his own darkest time of shame (except for the 20 years he spent drunk and coked to the gills).
Tough times for the BushCo myth-makers.
right on! @ 12:
That is the exact meaning of the "Pre-9/11 Mindset".
Prior to allowing the attack on the Trade Center. Bush was universally seen as a genial idiot. Does anyone remember the show "That's My Bush"?
The most tragic result of that terrorist attack was that Americans started treating Bush as if he had a brain! Even Bush didn't take himself seriously before that.
We all need to be reminded from time to time the consequences of voting for a drinking buddy when what the country needs is a leader.
Correct email address for MSNBC, should anyone want to write and recommend that
David Schuster be given his own show is:
Generalcomments@feedback.msnbc.com
Logan Murphy @ 61:
OK OK....I listened to it a few more time. Your right.
Just for the record, there were an additional 10,824 non-hostile deaths for a total of 58,202
CraigJohnson @ 67:
No problem, I can understand how you might have heard it the other way. Thanks for the additional statistics.
Here's an interesting take on Viet Nam I read today:
Vietnam had thousands of years of really ugly stuff. Uncle Ho was a relatively good statesman, as it turns out - and we managed to, by killing a million or so of 'em :( - provide a common enemy to dissolve internal dissentions. I've run into people who said that a pure civil war in Vietnam *without* America could have been bloodier. It also allowed the NVA to normalize relations with China, which has been major in helping 'Nam.
I dunno. There's a thing about the devil leaving garlic with every footstep. I think it's kinda like that.
[Edited by sitemonitor. Excessive boldface removed. Remember, boys and girls, a little bold goes a long way.]
Logan Murphy @ 61:
Very clearly he said 58,000. Anyway, only in America can a cowardly piece of shit like Bush dodge service in a war, then invoke that war to defend the one his stupid ass got us into. No wonder this asshole is clueless, did anyone catch the article about the WH standards for keeping protesters away from Chimpy? I can only hope I never see a disgrace to humanity like Bush in power again.
it is pretty unbelievable that a man that wasnt willing to serve alongside these men in vietnam has the balls to stand before them and give them lectures on that war , how can you people in the eye and not feel like an asshole? oh wait its bush, enough said , the fact is all these vets hes talking to are hand picked stoogies, and when he talks to the american legion group they too will all be bush botts!
Daisy Zimmerly @ 50:
Well, Daisy, I hate to tell you that if the road in front of your driveway is privately owned, you will be paying too much to access that road and the next road and the next road and just wait until you need to cross a bridge... And, Daisy, who will police the streets and who will put out house fires once these services become privitized?
Daisy - that's my daughter's name and I'm happy to say that she has more common sense than you do.
What can you say about Bush. He is demented, a liar and an idiot. There are always those like Bush and Cheney trying to rewrite history. Only fools will believe such BS.
wayne @ 73:
No shortage of fools 'round here.
Coffins draped with flags @ 72:
Daisy, how dare you wax sarcastic.
Midway through the Hardball segment I actually thought I was watching Countdown w/Keith. Barnicle pierced the neocon spin with subtle abandon. Way to go, Mike!
Is this the American media ?
No cheer leaders or pom-poms?
Schuster actually did a decent reporting job. If they continue to "report" and not propagate, I may start watching. (watching FOX Tabloid become ineptly bankrupt).
Anyone think that if the networks continued to report as Schuster that they would be the lead and would FOX try to follow that lead? Nawh, Not unless Murdoch successfully graduated from a Neo-con Rehab. Overcoming his abusive Fascism.................................
Shuster said that the murderous rule of the Khmer Rouge began BEFORE US troops left Vietnam. That is absolutely false. The Khmer Rouge took over in April 1975, two weeks before the helicopter departure from the US embassy and a full two years after the majority of US combat troops had left.
There was a five year old civil war in Cambodia, but the KR was not in charge until spring 1975
I think the Democrats in Congress are going to CAVE IN again in September.
The SURGE in Iraq is showing "signs of progress..." and now we have been enlightened by our Courageous Leader so we will not repeat the terrible lesson learned from the devestating CUT AND RUN that the Democratic Defeatist Party used which forced us to lose the Glorius Veit Nam war.
We should have kept our troops in Viet Nam... and we should have SURGED there, too, to keep the jungles safe for our boys on patrol. Of course it would have been dangerous... and a Viet Nam SURGE might have cost us another 50,000 dead Americans... but it would have kept the Viet Cong Terrists out of Saigon... and that beautiful gem of a city would STILL BE CALLED SAIGON... and those beautiful Viet Namese hookers would still be servicing our boys there on leave... and we never would have had to dump all those helicopters into the sea off the decks of the last ships to leave... and we would have been VICTORIUS... and the Viet Cong TERRISTS would still be hiding in those cramped tunnels in the jungles... and that GOD-DAMNED JOHN McCAIN WOULD STILL BE LOCKED UP IN THAT LUXURY HOTEL HE WAS STAYING AT IN HANOI.
Great post C'boy!
this guy says the name Hardball like he takes pride in it. Like it means what it sounds like. A rarity these day, verdad.
God its depressing looking at that fat head O'Reilly's numbers.
Of course many tune in just to see what kind of jack ass he makes out of himself on any given night,what with his war against far left communist lesbians who don't celebrate Christmas,etc. Still...
If I had known that Matthews was going to be out today, I would have actually watched Hardball. I can't stand Matthews - he's just another creepy frat boy. I used to tune into MSNBC from 7 until 10 every night but Matthews started creeping me out so bad that I had to turn him off. Then they Joe S went to mornings and I'm left with Keith and that's it. Matthews should be fired.
Was it Goebbels who said the bigger lie the more likely it is that the people will believe it? Perhaps this is what Bush is banking on when he made this speech. Maybe Bush's secret plan is to see if U.S. deaths in Iraq can equal those in Vietnam-58,000. Bush gave his speech among the pro-war VFW crowd in Kansas City, Mo. One suspects that he knew better than to give his revisionist speech in front of the veterans at the Veterans for Peace convention held in nearby St. Louis, Mo.
CraigJohnson @ 49:
he said 58,000. the mistake is yours my friend.
carefulwiththatAXEeugene @ 85:
Yes, thankyou. I admitted that in an earlier post. I now pass the blame to my 1 inch laptop speakers.
Historians have cited the U.S. intervention and bombing campaign (spanning 1965-1973) as a significant factor leading to increased support of the Khmer Rouge among the Cambodian peasantry. Historian Ben Kiernan and Taylor Owen have used a combination of sophisticated satellite mapping, recently unclassified data about the extent of bombing activities, and peasant testimony, to argue that there was a strong correlation between villages targeted by U.S. bombing and recruitment of peasants by the Khmer Rouge.
US MILITARY ACTION WAS A ROOT CAUSE OF KHMER ROUGES' RISE TO POWER.
BUSH, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
What the f_ _ _ does Dumbya know about history or anthing else for that matter. The guy can't even put two sentences together.
Pretty soon bush will be contradicting himself when he says "Gimme another shot of Gentleman Jack, I need another beer?"
The man is insane, or totally on too many medications. Who the hell writes his speeches anyway, 25 year olds? The fact that this man, who should know better, does not know the history of the war he was AWOL from, speaks volumes about his arrogance and fuck-you attitude toward the American people.
CraigJohnson @ 43:
Can one DAY go by that this isn't the case?