Real Time Overtime: On the MoveOn Vote, Iran vs. Saudi Arabia and getting out the African-American vote
By Nicole Belle Sunday Sep 30, 2007 8:36am
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On the online exclusive Real Time Overtime, host Bill Maher and guests Michael Eric Dyson, Pete Hamill, and Rahm Emanuel slam Rudy's inconvenient phone calls and take questions from the audience. What struck me is just how ill-informed Rahm actually is.
On his vote to condemn the MoveOn ad, Rahm goes on and on about how it gave the Republicans something to hang on. That may be true, but here's the forest you keep missing, Rahm: The FIRST AMENDMENT guarantees Free Speech, even the sort which you don't like. Funny how the hypocrisy of the Republicans that you take pains to point out didn't keep you from voting with them. Your voting record doesn't seem to indicate that you're paying all that much attention to the vast majority of Americans who want us out of Iraq either.
In discussing the fact that the White House is so focused on Iranian activities in Iraq and ignores Saudi Arabia, Rahm also shows his complete lack of understanding about Middle Eastern politics:
The Iranians are a Persian culture and the House of Saud is a Shiite government, a total different culture and a different people and etc. The question about Saudi Arabia is there is a clear, they have been funding radical schools throughout the Mideast and it is a big problem for us.
Um, no, Rahm. The ruling mullahs of Iran (who are Persian, you got that right, but that's an ethnicity, not a religion) are Shi'a. The Saudis are Sunnis. That's part of the problem. The "insurgents" in Iraq (at least, most of them) are Sunnis.
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Rahm Emmanuel played a huge roll in determining which Democratic candidates got funding in the last election. He consistently funded campaigns for Dems that had the most Republican platform and were pro-war and pro-bush. He denied funding for candidates that were giving anti-war speeches.
As a result, he morphed the Democratic party leadership into a Republican-Lite role.
bill mahers is a douchbag,
Yeah, Rahm reaffirmed my belief on Friday that he's a gigantic tool. He spouted the same shamless lie that the BEST way out of Iraq was to elect a Democrat in 2008, rather than simply not offering up a funding bill, filibustering such a bill, or impeaching the war criminals in office. Claiming that the Saudis are Shia just put me over the edge.
Rahm is such a stale idiot yet he never ceases to amaze.
The Iranians are a Persian culture and the House of Saud is a Shiite government, a total different culture and a different people and etc. The question about Saudi Arabia is there is a clear, they have been funding radical schools throughout the Mideast and it is a big problem for us.
The House of Saud is a Shiite government?! Say Waaaaaaaa? What a colossal screw up on his part. It reveals arrogance on a stupendous level.
Hi, we will bomb your country to hell but we don't give a shit about your culture, history, language or religion. But we want to liberate you! Or wait..maybe we want to hold your hand.
What a sick joke.
What's the matter, Rahm? Republicans suddenly need help to muddy the waters?
Get a clue or STFU.
I'd have to correct you on one thing. The "insurgents" in Iraq are american.
the saudies are a bunch of sick fucks! sex slaves !yeah they got em!your daughter missing? look for her in the saudie brothels!got terriorists , the saudie royals sponsor them just so they dont rise up and cut thier fucking throuts like they ought to,
Rahm is a Republican, pretending to be a Democrat. He's two steps behind Lieberman.
Both parties look just sick and wrong at this point. It's all going to blow up.
I am beginning to agree with Weaseldog, Rahm is becoming another Lieberman. Sometimes I wonder if anyone in DC actually studies what the hell is happening or do they just grab a dictated thought and run with it?
Look at past empires. What did they do after they managed to invade a couple of countries and survived to tell about it? Why they kept invading until they got their butts kicked. They always overextended themselves.
Are we following the same pattern? If we hit Iran, we will be forced to bring back the draft. I believe bush is counting on this. Then what? How much of the ME can we control if we use drafted troops? And for how long can we wage war against 60 million people? How well can we control the situation? for how long?
If ME oil is knocked out, it is game over. We won't have fuel to bring our troops home.
Weaseldog @ 8:
the real problem here is thier are to many in the democratic party that are just republican plants , how yah going to know who they are? well start with a golwater darling hillery clinton, its a good start!
Uh, Tyson is the crazy boxer. Dyson is the black academe. More lame fact checking from NB.
[It was a typo. More lame assumptions from a potato-Sitemonitor]
goldwater damit
"but here’s the forest you keep missing, Rahm: The FIRST AMENDMENT guarantees Free Speech, even the sort which you don’t like."
I'm really sick and tired of people complaining that "first amendment free speech rights" were violated because someone dared criticize something someone said. MoveOn's free speech rights were not violated - it's that simple. In a sense, the Senate was exercising ITS free speech rights in having this vote. And it can do that, even when they say something you don't like.
Now, should the Senate have held the vote? Of course not. It was a cheap political stunt of the kind that Republicans have perfected over the last few years. But criticize the vote because of that, not for some bogus reason. We're supposed to be better than Republicans. Remember?
Weaseldog @ 11:
Unless we invade Venezuela. /snark
pissed off patricia @ 10:
Since everyone's phone has probably been tapped we might be talking fear. It's all about corporate infiltration and yes men, imo.
Rahm has a chip on his shoulder to prove how "tough" he is to Foxians who'll say "why can't Democrats be strong on national security like Rahm?"
Swashbuckler @ 15:
The Government doesn't have the right to free speech. 'The People' have the right. No where in the Constitution is the Congress, Judiciary or the Executive Offices guaranteed the right to free speech. And the principle by which the Constitution operates is that the People have every right not expressly denied, and the Government has only those rights that are expressly granted.
The move by the Senate and House is a non-binding censure. Censure is a violation of free speech, even if it is nonbinding.
If Rahm wants to bitch about the MoveOn ad, then he needs to redirect the attention to the ad's content, rather than reading the commentary printed on the hem of Rush's boxer shorts.
And we voted Democrat in 2006 to 'end the war.' You're not earning our confidence or our vote by doing nothing, and expecting we'll still vote Democrat in 2008 to 'end the war.'
I just heard on tv that tsa is going to ban some children's toys from planes, as they might be used to ignite an explosive devise. Jesus, is this a stretch or what? Seems now we have a war on toys. First the lead paint and now this.
people in indiana are stupid , one letter to the editor this maorning blames alkida in this country for the lead in childrens toys for the poisoned pet food also, its them arabs, the lady across the street from me thinks were being nasty to our servicemen in iraq by chargeing them with murder because some of them murdered 25 iraqy men women and childrens he he, after all this dimwhit says were bringing them freedom and thier killing us for it, and she goes to church every sunday but as she says we ought to kill all them sandni88ers! god where did you go wrong allowing these followers of your not to have been aborted when it was needed!
Haven't you realized what moveon.org represents to Hilary, Inc. by now? Another opportunity to slap its base constituency into a corner to reassure power that Hilary is one of them.
Further proof that your real choices as far as party affiliation are "Repug" and "repug lite".
Weaseldog @ 19:
Hate to burst your bubble, but Rahm Emmanuel is an idiot. Saudi Arabia is not a Shiite regime. Their state religion is Wahhabi Islam, an off-shoot of Sunni Islam. They view Shiites as takfir, or traitors to Islam, which is why they are constantly conspiring against Iran, and why their fanatical young men are murdering Iraqi Shiites by the thousands as we speak.
As for Bill Maher, he's on the right track, but this goes way beyond the 9/11 hijackers and the Saudi suicide bombers in Iraq:
www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com
The only reason Saudi Arabia is not the central front in the War on Terror is that our federal government is filled with people as corrupt and stupid as George W. Bush and Rahm Emmanuel. And we'll all probably be paying a high price for that sooner or later.
pissed off patricia @ 21:
It's all done for fear mongering. It has NOTHING to do with security and everything to do with reminding the people over and over that the threats are viable and imminent. As if the plastic utensils and seat trays can't be used for ignition.
My god, Rahm Emanuel is a prat.
Swashbuckler @ 25:
Rahm thinks the house of saud is shia--Nicole Belle thinks that the heavyweight champ was on Real Time Friday-- we're all a bit confused
Weaseldog @ 29:
Notice how Rahm keeps saying "Democrat Party"
His words betray him. He's a Republican in disguise.
[Hey snotball. What's your problem today? Take a break-Sitemonitor]
I think some folks think that MoveOn.org is a corporate style entity that exists as discrete body.
Fact is, many of us here are MoveOn.org. Anyone here who has signed a petition, has donated money or time, is a part of MoveOn.org. MoveOn does not have to file a lawsuit in order for those of us that are members to feel that our rights are being trampled.
Just as someone who has been mugged can't be told they weren't mugged, simply because the thief was never charged.
Spud @ 33:
Bloody hell, it's last week's dustbin.
Weaseldog @ 35:
Our forefathers dumped tea in the ocean so we would never have to drink tea again or use words like prat
It's Dyson not Tyson!
Professor Dyson is now at Georgetown.
Weaseldog @ 11:
Fortunately, the US gets most of its oil from Canada and Mexico (apparently, proximity matters more than supply at the source). Unfortunately, if the US continues to fuck up in the international community, even our neighbors might not be so nice anymore.
Tyson became a muslim in prison---Shiite or Sunni??
McDuff, I saw someone on tv, a while back, show how a credit card can be used as a weapon too. I agree with you this is being used now, especially along with the drums of war toward Iran. Hey, I've seen this movie before and it doesn't have a happy ending.
Blue Buddha @ 38:
Do we ship fuel to the ME to power our Humvees?
Wdmosely @ 37:
Yep... Tyson is the boxer. Though, if Maher had Tyson on instead of Dyson, he'd still be more intelligent than Rahm.
Blue Buddha @ 38:
We get a lot from Venezuela too.
If the ME is knocked out, the whole world will want to buy more oil from Venezuela, Mexico and Canada.
Why the surprise over Rahm Emanueal's ignorance? He's a DLC/DNC/DCCC/DSCC-type corporatist whore. Not to be trusted.
Do any of these idiots in Washington know anything about Middle East culture and religion? No wonder everything is so screwed up. They don't even know who they are fighting! Canada sure is looking good about now.
Peace! Please???
Weaseldog @ 41:
Hmmm... didn't think of that. Most likely that comes from the Arabian Peninsula (SA, UAE, Qatar, etc.). If the Arabian Peninsula decided to stop supplying US troops with oil, the next closest source would be Russia.
MoveOn gave the country a sidetracked argument? How about pukes like you, Rahm, who helped the Repugs sidetrack the country into talking about MoveOn instead of the lies promoted by the Shrub and his political lackey?
Goddamn, some of the Dems are beyond stupid.
Blue Buddha @ 46:
I'm not sure it would be about them deciding. Say as a result of our war against Iran, several ports and refineries were blown up?
We must root out incompetence whatever the party. Sorry, Rahm, you are an idiot.
Weaseldog @ 48:
... to continue, I doubt Russian tankers would risk unloading in a port that's being shelled on an irregular basis.
Weaseldog @ 43:
Indeed. It doesn't matter where it comes from. If there's less of it, everyone pays more for it.
Freedom of speech is a hallmark of democratic society. It was important enough that our founding fathers spelled it out fairly succinctly in the FIRST amendment to the Constitution. It is important because freedom of expression is one of the tools that a liberated people can use to prevent oppression and injustice and to assure the survival of democracy. But it comes with a price tag, it means that citizens will sometimes be exposed to opinions and viewpoints with which they do not agree. But it’s a small price to pay for freedom.
I do not agree with the tactic employed by MoveOn in the recent ad. But I do think that a culture as advanced as that of the US has the capacity to recognize that some expression may cross a line of civility and decorum and nevertheless be protected by the Constitution. .....
See full discussion of Freedom of Speech and MoveOn at www.politicalbalance.blog.com. This piece in its' entirety was taken out of the comments and posted to the blog at Donklephant. One of the most disturbing issues in America today is that we just don't seem to take Freedom of Speech very seriously. Political debate is the very reason is was included so prominently in constitution.
Rahm is a Republican, pretending to be a Democrat. He’s two steps behind Lieberman.
Campaign. Finance. Reform.
Only way to get back representative democracy.
I agree this clip is very interesting in a window into the thoughts or lack there of from Rahm. While I agree that the condemnation isn't a reduction of free speech, it is a glaring misunderstanding of the purpose of the congress. They are to function as the body that creates the necessary laws and provides a check and balance to the other branches of government not to the people that it represents. This condemnation is not their function, but a condemnation of Bush would be. However they did not support Feingold when he offered up even a censure of the president.
Moreover Rahm fails to recognize how this reinforces the republican talking points of the "out of control" "crazy" fringe left. You know that crazy 80% of the country that thinks it is time to start a withdrawal from our occupation of Iraq.
The battle has gone underground amigos.
I am rather astonished to hear anyone say that members of the US Senate do not have Freedom of Speech. Not only do they have the freedom but the means which is something most Americans lack.
Is there anything about freedom to be stupid and ignorant as hell in the constitution? The bill of rights?
I think the disagreement here is whether the censure is actionable.
Because it is non-binding, it probably isn't actionable.
The Senate however did come together as representatives of the people, threatened MoveOn members, and told us to shut the hell up.
The government is making it clear that the little people need to keep their moths shut, or else. they just showed us that they will show solidarity in suppressing Free Speech.
This was their shot across the bow.
Rahm has got to be one of the most clueless people that I have ever heard from and I thought no one could be more clueless than the Republicans. The House of Saud are Sunnis and as it said in the C&L commentary the Iranians are indeed Persians but their religion is Shi'a. If the House of Saud were Shi'a as Rahm claims then they would more than likely be backing the Shi'a militia groups in Iraq (I.E. Al Sadr) just like the Iranians. Obviously, this is not the case. We all know that the Saudis see the Iranians as a threat and are attempting to offset the gains made by the Iranians by backing the Iraqi Sunnis.
You know, I bet Rahm even thinks that the Irish IRA are allied to the British. :lol:
Geez, just how stupid does one have to be in order to hold a seat in Congress.
xoites defends Constitution @ 56:
The Senate as a body representing the will of the people? Or individuals that make up the Senate?
These are two entirely things.
Stopping the funding sounds like a good idea to me but it may be a tactical victory only to become a strategic blunder if it results in a sufficient movement by moderate voters to the GOP in 08 resulting in a more massive and longer lasting conflict in the middle east. The perfect may become the enemy of the good.
Secondly, I believe Emmanual's saying Saudi's were Shi'a was a verbal error and that while I prefer th DNCs 50 state strategy, Emmanual helped get a lot of Democrats elected and we should appreciate that. I'll take a moderate Dem over any Republican every day.
The move-on ad was a mistake. It played to the choir and alienated most everyone else. It may have been accurate but it was counter-productive. It's not enough to vent, you have to accomplish something positive and this didn't. Criticizing it is not a condemnation of freedom of speech. It's condemnation of a bad tactic.
Everytime Rahm takes one for AIPAC he shows up on TV and
no one confronts him and he knows no one will confront him.
I wanted Pete Hamill to embarrass him but he stayed silent
for the sake of decorum.
Weaseldog @ 60:
I don't see how people can justify their own government censoring free speech. They seem to think that the relationship between the government and the constituency is that of reciprocity. Well, it isn't. The government is supposed to protect people's rights. The government can't pass laws or apply pressure on various organizations to limit free speech. It's not their job and they don't have a right to do so. End of discussion. If a politician wants to criticize moveon.org they should do so in their free time as a citizen, not on the house floor.
Joe O. @ 59:
I think you required to have an IQ of 80...
...or below.
The people got the Dems elected.
Rahm Emmanuel made a directed effort at insuring that the most pro-war candidates got the lion's share of the funding. He worked hard to suppress candidates that were anti-war.
Appearances suggest that Rahm Emmanuel may have groomed little known Republicans to take Democratic seats as Democrats. As most of his hand picked Dems are voting straight Republican, it looks fishy.
I understand that many people will take loyal Republican who pretends to be a Dem, over a Republican that has left the closet any day. But since they vote exactly the same, I have no loyalty to either.
McDuff @ 63:
I thought the vote was stupid and appalling but it made no attempt to censor. There was no attempt to prohibit Move-on from speaking, they just said they didn't like what Move-on said and they have every right to criticize Move-on. We have evey right to say we don't like their criticism. And so it goes.
Rahm Emanuel is an idiot. So moveon gave he rethugs ammo, so they never should have run it? What, does he think the wouldnt haave found some other manuafactuered outrage to hang thier hat on if it hand'nt been run?
So what does he prompose we do? Oh yes, JOIN tyhem in casting a vote condemiong it! Brilliant Rahm!
it's this running scared mindset which allowed the Bushies to have thier way thelst 6 years.
Thanks for the advise Rahm, but I on my way to blow joe Lieberman now.
Spud @ 13:
That is what I thought too.
Wow...the Errors are just piling up. And DYSON was the only one on that panel that knew what he was talking about.
The majority of this country can't find Iraq on a map, why should our representatives be any different?
Swashbuckler @ 15:
What do you think will happen the NEXT time a MoveOn-type organization attempts to purchase a Petraeus-type ad in the NY Times or any other "respectable" publication?
lvogt @ 66:
Individually, Senators can say what they like. But they expressed government and public policy by taking it to a vote. It is the government's official position now that they will not accept criticism from the peons.
I think what people are trying to say is that the government has the right to spend the people's time and money, protecting the Republican Party from criticism from the people.
Stephen @ 68:
OMG, have you people not ever made a typo before? Good to see you focusing on the important things in life.
Weaseldog @ 71:
Exactly. Just because MoveOn "gave the Republicans ammunition" doesn't mean the Democrats had to load the Republicans' gun and fire it at America.
It was absurd to let the Republicans frame the debate by portraying Petraeus as the neutral arbitrator of the effectiveness of Iraq policy since he was Bush's cherry-picked general with a bias in favor of the surge anyhow.
That said, what I would have done if I was MoveOn is to retract the ad and name the real parties how betrayed us, namely the President and his accomplices, who lied about the intelligence in order to get us into this quagmire, and the Congress who failed to impeach him and the VP for these lies. Those are the true traitors.
So long as we're picking between two corporate financed candidates, the Democrats are going to be happy as the half-loaf party being better than none. What are we hearing now, that we have to continue financing this war indefinitely unless a veto-proof majority votes to bring the troops home? What, is Bush holding our troops hostage?
Since electing this Congress in the hopes of winding down the war, instead, we got an escallation that should revert back to "stay the course".
There are other issues - I suppose half a loaf is better than none.
C&L fan @ 70:
Excellent point.
Nicole Belle @ 73:
Typo...? Yes. But...REMEMBER...Names are Important.
It was insulting to that man. Especially since he made the most sense that evening....
NoBuddy @ 75:
My crouton sized bit from the half loaf is covered in green mold. Is it safe to eat?
I was struck by the fact that nobody corrected rahm's assertion that the Saudis are Shia.
Then, Rahm tries to defend his vote in favor of condemming Move On by saying it was a diversion for the Republicans to hang onto. That is a Red Herring. Of course, Move on made a strategic political blunder with the add but that is not what the condemnation was about, Rahm. How lame and sad that Rahm caved into Republican pressure and that he is in the upper eschelons of the Democratic Party. Where are the really smart and ballsy people we want up there? Congress had no business voting to condemn that ad. The Democrats should all have not voted at all either way as a statement of the waste of time that it was and still is.
Rahm Emmanuel is a tool of AIPAC and the DLC and obviously not very enlightened or educated about the Middle East. He has no loyalty to liberals with progressive ideas and is one of the reasons that the Democrats are incapable of righting so many wrongs over the last 6.5 years. The gains we made in the last election are due to Howard Dean's 50 state strategy which Rahm and his ilk in our party fought against all the way.