Right Wing Talkers Blame Congress For Not Defining Waterboarding As Torture
By Logan Murphy Monday Oct 29, 2007 5:02pm
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MSNBC's Dan Abrams talks to Michael Reagan (who called for Howard Dean to be tried and hung for treason) , Pat Buchanan and Salon's Joan Walsh about the Mukasey nomination and why he won't admit that waterboarding is torture. Reagan makes the outrageous statement that a lot of people think that Lindsey Graham should be waterboarded. Pat Buchanan actually says that Congress needs to pass a law banning it and Michael Reagan chimes in on the same point. Hey Buchanan and Reagan, ever hear of the Geneva Conventions? We need to pass a law saying we're going to honor an international treaty?
Just like the "torture, death and deficit" Republicans to blame others for their mistakes. No accountability.
Congress did pass a law banning waterboarding, the McCain amendment to the Detainee Treatment Act. But then President Bush issued a signing statement making it clear that he will ignore the law at will:
"The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks."
For the details, see:
"Bush Signing Statement, Gonzales Perjury Concealed Torture Policy."
Angry One @ 2:
Doesn't matter. Still democrats fault.
I'll tell what torture is, listening to Pat Buchanon's and Michael Reagon's bullshit. 447 days of the Bush/Cheney cabal in power, that's torture. There, I'm a Democrat and I defined torture.
I know! Let's make a law that murder is illegal! Let's also clarify for the courts that we frown upon stealing and rape. Because it's obvious that some people can't tell WHEN SOMETHING IS FUCKING ILLEGAL.
I remember back when liberals used to get those soft-on-crime accusations hurled at them. That was back when Republicans pretended they were the law-and-order types. Now, they're just the order-and-obey types. Who break laws all the time.
I think it would be far easier and more effective to define what CAN be done instead of what cannot be done. Sidenote: Michael Reagan is absolutely, unequivocally, tits on a bull.
Bush's signing statements are illegal. He cannot make the law and he thinks that the signing statements can alter laws passed by Congress. This is Bush's way of using an imaginary line item veto power which he doesn't have.
Republicans support torture, death and deficits.
It's time to question right winger's [ and Bush's ] mental health....
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_questions_Bushs_mental_health_103...
This is just plain sickening.
Here is an article you all might like to read over at smallwarsjournal.com, Waterboarding is Torture… Period
They did speak the truth....it's Congress's task to provide the definition here for the act. And, as Angry One said, Congress *did* indeed define torture....only to have Chimpy break the law in using the Signing Statement as a Line Item Veto.
One more count on the list for Impeachment.
Our Dem Congress better grow a spine quick and DO something.....I'm starting to feel a craving for Calamari, and they're just the invertebrates that'll do in a pinch.....
Is Alberto Gonzales a Democrat now?
"Maybe there's different degrees of waterboarding"
Is the CIA giving out degrees in waterboarding now?
Does Rumsfeld have a PHD in torture?
I agree with them.
Congress should make a long list of prohibited ways to treat prisoners, including waterboarding, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, isolation, sensory deprivation, administering drugs without permission, etc., with lawsuits possible by prisoners when these prohibitions are violated.
It's like the abusive husband saying "Why do you make me beat you, stupid bitch?"
If these guys aren't sure if water boarding is torture, why don't they just have a professional water board them?
That should clear everything up for them.
What would be the purpose of waterboarding Graham if "waterboarding isn't torture"?
Think about it.
amgriffin @ 14:
Or, "Look what you made me do!"
In this same segment, Micheal Reagan said people wanted to waterboard Lyndsey Graham as well. The poor simp smirked like he thought he was being witty. There's something seriously wrong with this dipstick.
Speaking of right wing morons, has anyone seen Melanie Morgan on MSNBC since she accused Chris Matthews of having too much fun showing Cheney from 10 years ago contradicting current day Cheney?
It's funny watching these Party of Death gas bags circling the drain.
Melanie Morgan, now thats one I'd recommend for the water board "demonstration".
nonbeliever @ 18:
Try to follow his logic: "Waterboarding is not torture", but "maybe Lindsey Graham should be waterboarded".
He's making a joke about "torturing" someone by using a means he "does not consider torture". Proof positive he knows the difference but doesn't give a crap.
nonbeliever @ 18:
They all do it. These chickenhawk xiofascist go absolutely moist in the loins whenever they fantasize about torture, and killing in the name of jeebus.
That or he was remembering his last mens room encounter with lindsey.
Come on, President Theodore Roosevelt said waterboarding was torture, Gen. Douglas MacArthur said waterboarding was torture, and the U.S. Government prosecuted and convicted war criminals for using waterboarding as a form of torture. Get these criminals out of the White House and into the prisons where they belong.
sure pass a law to be blown away by signing statements.
Waterboarding has been determined as "torture" since the 1900's. Why in the world does Congress need to define it - Buchanan needs to familiarize himself with the Geneva conventions, or the Army field manual. Reagan is beyond hope.
It is only since we have been suffering under the Bush administration that things that were always taken for granted have come under question. Bush&Co - re-interpreting laws, declining to participate in treaties, unilaterally invading sovereign nations, yet having the arrogance to tell other nations to get in line or we'll stomp on them.
Great.
Q. What has happened to America? A. Bush and Cheney.
Pat Buchanan is a bilious old fascist but he usually makes more sense than that. Michael Reagan is just a second-rate Limbaugh and he was true to form. Dan Abrams seems to think he's Jon Stewart, which he ain't. Only Joan Walsh sounded like an intelligent human being.
Laws against murder don't have to list all of the possible methods by which you can murder someone.
Long before Bush the United States Congress ratified the Geneva Conventions as Law.
I'm too sure, but I don't think the U.S. is a signatory. Though as #2 comment Angry One, points out, the Glorious Leader is above any Law.
Peace.
Unfrickinreal!
SHB - "I'm not too sure.....
we again accept the framing of the issue from the Pentagon. This is not a new tactic and was once known properly as water torture. No wiggle room for torture advocates with this direct unequivocable language.
Here is clarification of the subject. Nothing is new under the sun, unless you've had your head in the sand for most of one's life. We prosecuted the japanese after the Big One, WW2, for this very thing. So, what of jurisprudence in BushCoLand, does it have any meaning?
http://lawofwar.org/Water_Torture_Article.htm
Yes, have Congress introduce and pass a bill that is redundant with international law, which the President will veto, and Congress will by a majority just shy of the required 2/3 fail to override, and then blame the 'Democrat Congress' for not upholding international law...you mean like THAT, Pat?
Eric Jaffa @ 13:
No need to, as there are laws in place which already define this stuff. Torture was not created by Bush. He may not know any of its history even though he majored in history, but it ain't new.
Having Congress redefine torture is counterproductive and displays an ignorance of international law.
amgriffin @ 14:
Great analogy!
Pat would love to see 'special' work camps set up to deal with all sorts of domestic problems; he would even build special ovens to take care of the 'waste'.
Now that the US has broke the agreement of the Geneva Conventions rule on capured prisoners America will see the same thing happen to our troops as what we did in Iraq. Yes all this talk but it will come back to bite us in the butt. Notice all those yelling the loudest are the ones who never served in the US Military. McCain knows what could happen to a POW yet he sold out to the GOP in exchange for their support for him to be President. Our troops will suffer because the Bush Administration broke the rules. Cheney is all for waterboarding but if he has it done to him you'll see how fast he says it illegal. I just can't wait for the United Nations to bring charges of War Crimes against this Administration. Rummy has warrants for his arrest overseas so he can't leave the United States.
Dan Abrams seems a little melodramatic. What is the deal with that guy?
Pat Buchanan, I used to like ok. At least he 's not completely in the WH pocket, like all other rw boobs.
But his rhetoric for about a year is to blame the Dems for all of GWs' failures-which is ridiculous.
He essentially says," Bush is a lunatic-so why don't the Dems stop him?", completely letting GW off the hook for any culpability.
It's gotta be the single most idiotic tactic I've seen used by the RW-yet I've heard no Dems opposite him ever point out that all of the reasons point clearly to the WH for blame and where the correction lies.
It is soooo laughable coming out of all right wing-nut morons shitholes.
Bill Bennett just tried the same "Congress should have banned waterboarding" argument on the Situation Room. It's clear this is an orchestrated campaign, and we'll hear the same argument from every Republican pundit that can get near a microphone for a while. So what if the international community universally condemns waterboarding as torture.
What mystifies me is why any rational human being would want to defend the use of waterboarding. How would Bill Bennett feel about waterboarding if some other country was using waterboarding on American citizens. Would he think it was torture then?
Dread Pirate Robert @ 23:
That and more is documented here –
http://tinyurl.com/2q7mmq
The article above by Joe Conason at Solon also states that a U. S. Army Major was temporarily suspended when found guilty of authorizing waterboarding of 'suspected Filipino insurgents' in 1902. So waterboading by the U. S. A. has gone from being a prohibited, punishable offense to being a commonly approved U. S. A. occurrence.
The U. S. A. has come a looong way, baby, straight down, from being decent to being a leader in the descent down into the bottomless sadistic pit of torture.(:-(
Allen McDonald, El Galloviejo®
Bill Bennett likes waterboarding because he can wager on when the detainee will break. It's become one of his favorite wagering gambits.
I'm disappointed, none of the reich-wingers blamed Clinton.
Do Bill Bennett and the other Republican apologists also want Congress to also define stretching on the Rack, enclosing in the Iron Maiden, pushing slivers under the fingernails and using a branding iron or a bullwhip as torture was well, or will common sense and international law be satisfactory in those cases.
My wife and I watched this....I immediately noticed the way Buchanan spun it around to go on the attack.Going completely off topic....well....I suppose we should expect that,cause they sure as hell can't defend their position on it.
Micheal and Pat both are both afflicted with mental development on par with spoiled 8 year olds. I'd say they could both use a good spanking and I don't usually support physical discipline.
bethincary @ 39:
Buchanan doesn't let Bush off the hook. He has said over and over again that Bush is a failed President and that the Iraq war is the greatest blunder in American history. I'll bet that closed to half of his columns in the last six years have been anti-Bush. But what he can't understand why the Democrats aren't doing their job in the checks and balances system that we have called Democracy. Why are Pelosi and Reid behaving like Quislings? Is Buchanan not allowed to asked those questions just because he's a Republican? Here is the link to the archives for his columns:
http://www.theamericancause.org/patarchives.htm
No , but we obviously need to pass a law that states specifically our mentally incompetent Pretzeldent will honor it ...................
and as for Micheal Reagan...he was lost until Buchanan went into attack mode.....then he jumped in..another clueless idiot.
Dr. Matt @ 44:
bill or hillary?
Human @ 29:
not a signatory? when does YOUR history start?
Eric Jaffa @ 13:
that would be the geneva conventions!
nothing else is needed!
the democrats can pass a bill that states waterboarding is torture and two things will happen that will lead to the same result:
1. gubna chimpy vetoes the bill and either 146 or 34 americans decide that simulating drowning to extract information (info most likely unreliable because tortUERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRextreme interrogation has been proven to be unreliable) isn't torture and is therefore a necessary tool on the global war on terrorism against islamofascism. and the world weeps.
2. gubna chimpy SIGNS the bill, but in a signing statement instructs all agents to not enforce the rule. congress has no recourse to charge the president with anything because no one will enforce the law. and the world weeps.
the final result is the same- the democrats get blamed for not being able to force the president to recognise what he is doing as torture. so in this zero-sum game, why bother when the outcome is already predetermined?
I think the attorney general needs a little help deciding whether waterboarding is torture or not. Perhaps if he were strapped to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. If someone would bind his arms and legs so he can't move at all, then someone repeatedly poured water onto the ag's face. If ag was made to believe he wwas drowning, and his gag reflex kicked in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face maybe, just maybe he would be able to decicde whether waterboarding is torture or just harmless fun. Boys will be boys?
David Addington secretly threw the Geneva Convention out with W's bathwater but why are we even debating this today with the NeoCons? Is there any doubt that this is torture?? Why aren't they in jail? The absolute balls it takes to torture and call it legal is only matched by the opposition's complete lack of huevos that allows it to continue to this day.
Sickening.
I'm sure if Clinton did this,they'd be screaming at the top of their lungs for his head...these vermin are so absurd..their acting childish.And the dumbed down sheeple think it's funny.Seriously Fubar.
Waterboard Lindsey Graham? No way. I believe closeted homosexuals suffer enough in our society.
Mukasey definitely needs to step up and submit to what they're calling "not torture," just to prove how humane it really is. Does a Repub ever put his filthy money where his filthy mouth is when it really matters?
Bryan @ 48:
Jesus I'm so fucking tired of Buchanan I could throw up. He's trotted out day in and day out on MSNBC as a commentator and he's still the pugilistic mouth-foamer he was during the Nixon era: He was busily defending Nixon in the congress when that asshole Nixon was getting on the helicopter to fly off into his well-deserved oblivion. He is trash through and through. He is an inveterate Democrat-hater. And what can be said of that blabbering moron ersatz-Reagan? It wouldn't have done any good for Ronny to spill his seed on the ground because some idiot had already spawned this repulsive idiot.
And by the way, I might be very distantly related to buchanan, and if I knew which part of me it was, I'd fucking burn it off.
SteveinSC @ 59:
I'm not saying that I agree with everything Buchanan says. All I'm saying is that you have to give the devil his due when he's right. And for the last six years, there have been very few pundits who've been right as often as Buchanan has when it comes to foreign policy and trade policy. He's the last person I would listen to when it comes to domestic policy. But I can't imagine that he'd be a worse Secretary of State than Condoleezza Rice. It's amazing that so many people on this site won't accept a message unless they like the messenger no matter how much they agree with message.
Maybe we can ask those who believe water-boarding is not torture to volunteer for a session ala Fox News. They can go for the standard protocol, repeated on a daily basis, or stop the procedure as soon as they sign a confession that water-boarding is torture and make a video of their confession for use by Amnesty International. They can then decide for themselves on the reliability of water-boarded truth.
From now on anyone we fight will fight to the last man, because they know we will just torture them to death anyway.
No surrender anymore.
Heck of a job guys.
What happened to MSNBC cable today? The day of the Democratic debates, and the cable company has taken MSNBC off the air? I'm a bit disturbed and confused. Anybody know what's going on?
You can bet that bor, vannity and the other nameless goons still have their channel of propaganda going strong...but the voice of reason is missing for some strange reason.
The obvious subtext to any of these discussions is that we wouldn't even be having the discussion if we weren't under the rule of a rogue administration intent on breaking the law whenever they feel like it. These right-wingers can't defend Bush/Cheney and defend America at the same time, so it become clear whenever these issues are discussed that they don't really give a damn what this country has stood for these past 230 years. They don't really like America and want to convert it into something that doesn't resemble the nation that was founded all those years ago.
I agree with RJ@38 - what was Abrams smoking before the show? I've never seen him quite so "animated."
Smedley Valet @ 32:
I'm sick of Michael Reagan getting welfare segments on these shows because his father didn't pull out of Nancy in time
jr @ 67:
Michael Reagan was adopted.
The Geneva Conventions I learned watching Hogan's Heroes afternoons on schooldays are a better standard than what our government's 'tortured logic' provides.
Ok, I understand Pat Buchanan and Joan Walsh. But come on, Michael Reagan ?
Who does he represent? What brought him into prominence on society? Or made him an expert on these issues? Micheal lives off his daddy's name.
Hell the republicans have named parks, war ships, airports, space weapons(ray-gun) after this ex President. Why haven't we taken Micheal and taxidermed him ? To pit him in a museum ?
SOMEONE SHOULD TURN OFF BUCHANAN'S MIKE
I really hope they don't put this man in office.
Congress CERTAINLY HAS passed a law against waterboarding.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002441----...
This is insane and ridiculous. The congress could define waterboarding as torture -- sure. But then they would have to define every imaginable act as torture. It would simply result in the torturers staying one step ahead of the legislature much in the same way that illegal drug makers stayed one step ahead of the defined illicit drugs.
Furthermore, the right-wingers are claiming that Congress can not pass any law which restricts the President's legitimate authority as commander in chief. That is supposedly beyond their capacity as lawmakers. So this entire argument is moot if that's the case.
The constitution defines international treaties as the 'supreme law of the land', does it not?
I'm almost positive waterboarding has always been considered torture. It's around since the Spanich Inquisition and it was forbidden during WWII. The problem is we have a president who has re-defined torture. The Republicans are well known for making up their own rules as they go along.
As far as Congress passing a law, that would require Republicans to get on board. Besides which, McCain attempt to do just that, and if I recall, Bush turned right around with a signing statement basically nullifying anything he disagreed with. There you have it. We officially have a dictatorship, a president who believes he can disregard Congress and act on his own authority.
@C&L
Buchanan is on the anti-torture side, he is just being realistic. International treaties are clearly not enough to contain the military of a superpower.
Btw, this is not a rep vs. dem discussion. You think it would different under a Clinton or a Obama administration. The idiot in this issue is Dan Abrams, he says he doesn't want to ban all torture.
Ok, so you have a no-waterboarding law. The GOP would simply substitute lemonade for water and say that are not breaking the law since they're lemonadeboarding. It is the intent of many laws that is important, not the letter of the law. Everyone knows what is and isn't torture; only those people who wish to violate the law start looking for loopholes to jump through.
Congress "defined" waterboarding: Under Geneva, it is abuse. End.
If the constitution gives the president the power to negotiate and sign treaties, which can only than be accepted or refused by a vote of the senate, are pat buchanan and michael reagan advocating congress LIMIT the president's constitutional power?
So Pat Buchanan thinks that waterboarding should be outlawed and blames Congress for not doing anything about it?
Does the chucklehead really need to be reminded just which party held the majority in Congress prior to the 2006 election?!? Why didn't they do anything about it? It's too convenient to simply blame the Democrats. It's not as if waterboarding is some sort of big secret that only recently came to light -- we've been hearing about it for well over a year now. And why does anyone really need to formally define it as torture anyway? Here's a really simple question...would you define waterboarding as torture if it were done to you? This is not rocket science, people...