Of course, any sentient human being that isn’t a blind apologist for this administration (or so afraid of the big scary Muslim that he hides from his own shadow) knows the answer to that.
And then there is David Rivkin…
Download | Play 
Download | Play (h/t Heather)
When oh when will we be spared these chickenhawk little scaredy-cats in serious discussions? Actually, if it wasn’t for these Bush apologists who have neither military experience nor intelligence (in every sense of the word) opining on military intelligence, there would be NO discussion on the legality or morality of “enhanced interrogation techniques” as they like to call it (or torture, for those of us in the reality-based community).
Listen to Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift (who, I might add, has both experience in the military and gathering intelligence, and who effectively lost his career in shaming the Bush Administration with the Hamdan case) make the point that besides being immoral, torture simply does not work:
…To me, it’s unfathomable that we are up against the line. You know, again, looking back at WWII, what history’s taught us, what we found is the reliable means of getting intelligence, at least in the context of a war, are using those things that build rapport with the person. That they find out you’re not the ogre they’ve been told, they begin to question the people who are leading them. And eventually, that leads to actionable intelligence and it’s reliable. See, that’s the real problem with anything that’s coercive. When you force somebody to talk, you cannot count on what they tell you. And in that case, I think it really is an unreliable form of interrogation and again, it’s why we don’t use it in court, is because it’s not reliable data.
And Rivkin’s response? The big scary “bad guys” are out to get us! You can’t be nice to them! How can anyone take a grown man seriously who uses such cartoonish and vague scare tactics?
Filed Under: CNN, Intelligence Gathering, Neocons/PNAC, Torture, War Coverage
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So Rivkin would not consider these techniques torture if used on him? Let’s ask him to have them used on him. Call his bluff.
The Bushies’ ultimate shame: Making torture into a musical: ‘RENDITION’ — FROM ‘TERRORIST HANGING FROM THE ROOF’
I could barely understand what that guy was saying. You could see the hot head start boiling, and he was so pumped up on his own reactions he couldn’t even wait to pronounce words right, or he’s just had a speech impediment his entire life. I don’t know, but these sally men need grow up and learn to use objectivity and skepticism before forming a shut-door logic in there heads that they use to shut out any differing view point. How come when Osama is on video he seems 10 times more clear in his thinking then these hot head neo needle dicks they get as “experts” on the cable news networks.
of course torture works! look at america squealing like a stuck pig as booschainey twists the knife.
David Rivkin has a foreign accent at first I thought it was French-Canadian) if he’s an American citizen then how is it he sounds like he’s both from TelAviv and Brooklyn, NY? Or is that anti-semitic to ask?
We established the legal precedents that determined that waterboard is torture by the convictions and sentences we handed down at war crimes tribunals for the Japanese after World War II. Their were specific convictions based upon waterboarding, because it fit into the international law and treaty definitions of torture. We were the first to convict for waterboarding, handing out stiff, long sentences at hard labor for the crime. Everybody involved, from Bush/cheney down to the thugs that inflict the torture, are war criminals who should be convicted and given sentences similar to what we issued the Japanese.
I can remember a time when I was proud to be an American.
ironic that Swift says:
“That they find out you’re not the ogre they’ve been told, they begin to question the people who are leading them.”
and that Rivkin responds by… telling us the enemy are big scary ogres.
What a demagogue like Rivkin is basically doing is to try to appeal to one’s emotions in order to justify the use of torture. The terrorists are coming! therefore the rules of the Geneva Conventions must be set aside so that these fearsome terrorists do not swim onto the shores of New York and San Francisco. This strategy is similar to the one employed by conservatives and libertarians regarding universal health care, i.e. Socialized Medicine! Socialized Medicine! Run for the hills!- the idea being to somehow conflate socialized medicine with a socialistic form of government. Never mind that neither argument becomes at all persuasive in trying to justify against torture and the idea of universal health care as being allegedly run by socialists trying to topple the United States government.
Torture works and everybody knows it. If my nuts were clamped between a pair of pliers I would tell everything I know; including everything I didn’t know I know.
The only thing ever gained from torture is sadistic pleasure.
still waiting for Rivkin to be waterboarded. He crapped his pants when the CSPAN called challenged him.
sulphurdunn @ 10:
Exactly!
American hegemony is on the immediate wane from grace as is the “virtues” that America once claimed to have over those nations on the “periphery” whom no longer look at the USA as a “great nation.”
With the falling U.S. dollar, military overstretch, and the cultural dead-end as far as the creative arts and music is concerned, America’s best days are behind it. There will be a new world-system, but the “universal values” of America will be absent in the new system. America will have to eventually learn how to be part of the international system without trying to run every aspect of it.
Even having to listen to such a torture debate is illustrative of America’s moral decay into the abyss. Then again, the United States has tortured prisoners for decades plus now, except, now its institutionalizing and “moralizing” such an obvious crime and moral sin against natural law and God’s law. This discussion (torture debate) is also a very good indicator of why other nation’s peoples look down on America and Americans, (yes, Americans for allowing such evil actions to even occur), as well as the decline of American hegemony in the present world system.
che g @ 5:
I think the accent is thick AIPAC!
We, as a nation can never again complain when our troops are tortured. We will have no moral standing to do so.
sulphurdunn @ 10:
Yes the nutty guy made this point for you. He said the islamic extremist are so committed to their ideology (unlike the Germans, for whom fascism was just a passing fancy) they will lie either way. So, he wants to torture to inflict pain, not to gain actionable intelligence.
Rivkin sounds like he is making up his answers off the top of his head. I think he is because he can’t possibly know how anyone has responded to any kind of treatment unlees he has seen it first hand.
He flat out lies when he says “History has proven tourtur works…” (Paraphrasing here.)
It doesn’t.
I was water boarded once at the city swimming pool. I was about 12 and the guys doing it to me were a couple of grades higher. They held me under water and I panicked. The trained life guard told them it was ok because it wasn’t torture.
People like Rivkin think torture works because they worry about what they would say under torture. No, not state secrets or troop placements, but things like how many times a day they masturbate, and what “dirty” thoughts they have. These people are SICK.
CoIntelPro @ 14:
Some people grow up in ethnic enclaves in this country. For instance, although born and raised in the US Liberace did not learn English until he was an adult.
sulphurdunn @ 10:
which pretty much describes the current junta in DC.
Torture works. I know nothing about mathematics but if an electric cattle prod was shoved up my ass; I would miraculously recite the algorithms than form the foundational basis for quantum mechanics.
mrogi @ 21:
I am afraid the only thing you know abiut torture is how to apply it to logic.
Rivkin is a fool,, I have no idea why CNN chose to title him as a “Military Law Expert”, anyone notice how on quick on the draw the video feeds person was with Rivkins talking points? He changes subject mid stream, and hits on “Hell Week” for US recruits,, and all of a sudden, wham!! hey look at the,, pictures of US solders training.. Amazing..
What are the names of the PR firms that program and promote these guys,, they should all go to jail..
If I wanted to be a smart-ass I’d say how could you take anyone that looked like that seriously regardless of the subject but I’ll be nice for now.
These people a long with every Republican is supposed to be the tough guys, the if you don’t elect us and take us seriously you’ll be sorry guys. The why is it that they’re so damned scared of everyone and everything? I’m retired military, a Democrat, and a liberal and let me say yes, there are a lot of people that are dangerous. They have the means and inclination to do damage but they don’t have the wherewithall to be the all mighty boogeyman. The attack on 9/11 was terrible but do our leaders ever think that we’ve lost more lives in Iraq and Afghanistan in retribution than we did on that fateful day? How many lives how been damaged beyond repair in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as these soldiers families? How many more will have to die to get back at Al Queda for 9/11 before our leaders finally listen to the citizens and say enough is enough?
By acting as the Republicans and neocon operative are, by installing fear of everyone and everybody in to the American people the “terrorists” don’t have to do another thing and they’ve won. One act on our soil and these people have made our leaders state to Americans that they must be afraid 24/7, that to be safe we must give up the freedoms that supposedly the terrorists hate us for, and shred the document that has been the basis of this country for over 200 years.
Then again the Republicans and neocons used this one event to further their agenda and fear of the boogeyman is their tool to remain in power and grab even more. Fearmongering has been their sole weapon for the last 4 years and it’s time that the American people stop being so damn afraid. Yes we should be gather intelligence to protect ourselves but stop spouting off that there is a terrorist behind every tree and under your bed. Take back your lives America and start acting like intelligent adults for once.
That’s all I have to say for now. We’re coming up on our 5th Veteran’s Day in Iraq and once again Bush and Cheney will stand in front of our troops and spout lies. It literally makes me sick to see Bush and his sycophants act like they actually care about our soldiers because it’s been proven over and over that they don’t. Commander in Chief or War Criminal? I think we all know the answer to that question now don’t we?
The question: Does torture work? is misleading. It implies that the desired result of torture is to extract information, it isn’t. The object is to humiliate and terrify and send a message to communities that are targeted by this tactic. It says to your opposition that you are capable of the unimaginable so they’d better submit. That’s the reason it has long been a tool in the arsenal of US foreign policy from Iraq to Vietnam, Guatemala, Chile, Honduras, El Salvador and who knows where else? The claim that the US does not torture is dangerous and misleading. We have, we do and will continue. Anybody ever hear of the School of the Americas now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....e_Americas
Training Manuals
See also: U.S. Army and CIA interrogation manuals
On September 20, 1996, the Pentagon released seven training manuals prepared by the U.S. military and used between 1987 and 1991 in Latin America and at the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA). These particular manuals are similar to lesson plans used by the school as far back as 1982 [9] and similar to those of Project X and KUBARK. According to Lisa Haugaard of School of the Americas Watch, these manuals taught repressive techniques and promoted the violation of human rights throughout Latin America and around the globe.[8] The manuals contain instructions in motivation by fear, bounties for enemy dead, false imprisonment, torture, execution, and kidnapping a target’s family members. Joseph Kennedy said “These manuals taught tactics that come right out of a Soviet gulag and have no place in civilized society.” The Pentagon admitted that these manuals were a “mistake”[9]
rend @ 23:
CNN could shorten Rivkin’s screen title to just one word, TOOL.
We torture. That is it. Whatever moral high ground we try to claim, it’s all out. I have mentioned this on another forum regarding the same topic. I don’t understand the argument that because we are dealing with a different kind of enemy we must play dirty. The basis for this fight is that we are more civilized and so we must defend our civility and freedom. What makes us civil is our respect for the rule of law. This is a view that is largely uncontested in the west. And yet we have completely disregarded Internationl Laws, which by the way have supremacy over national and domestic laws. If we torture, whatever moral high ground we claim can no longer be claimed. Torturing makes us just like our enemy, who we say is beneath us. Plus, even if we assume that it is OK to play dirty and torture, we’re not torturing Zaraqwi or any of those fucks who kill and maim innocents, we’re going after innocent people, ones against whom we cannot find any charges, ones who are truly innocent -people caught up in the conflict because they were there in the wrong time or the wrong place. We seem unable to charge anyone in Guantanamo with anything substantial. We knew for years now that something like 60% of those detained in Abu Ghraib were civilians. So, not only are we letting go of our morals and values by torturing, we’re torturing the wrong people, innocent civilians. Also, we know that people will say whatever you want them to say under torture, to lift the pain. People who have undergone torture will tell you this. It is not an effective way to get information. So even if we OK it morally, it’s not the effective way to get information. Even if waterbording does not leave physical marks. Sleep deprivation does not leave physical marks either, but you deprive someone from sleep and they develop psychosis. Many people who have been tortured struggle with torture for the rest of their lives. Many commit suicide.
Every right wing asshole gets a woody when anything related to Jack Bauer is mentioned!
Bunch of fucking masochists!
See, THAT’S the problem, Rivkin would say: The damn activist courts keep thinking our unreliable data is unreliable. We need to get some right-thinkin’ judges in there who don’t care where data comes from!
That Rivkin 1/2 witt looks like a sweaty Nazi out of an Indiana Jones movie. I can’t believe they can’t find a more American looking guy to sell their torture for them.
Rivkin is afraid of suppositories, because he keeps for getting they are not
foil wrapped candies left in the fridge.
CoIntelPro @ 20:
and exactly what pat robertson uses on those who do not agree with his delusions.
Here’s a related comment I made on another site a couple of days ago…
If he is not a governmental employee, as was the case with Levin, perhaps there are some members who were formerly with the military who might volunteer to waterboard this disgusting piece of living excrement.
I have a co-worker who was in the military for eighteen years, and he indicated that part of his training was to be waterboarded. He stated that it is so unpleasant that a person would eventually say anything to get it to stop.
In fact, I think it would be great to have this guy on national television being waterboarded until he admitted to raping infants, and once he does, then haul him off to jail.
Rivkin would need to either stand by his torture-induced confession and spend the next few years in prison, and, as a child rapist, his time there would not be pleasant OR he would need to assume the stance (a wide one, to be sure), that he said what he did only to terminate the feeling of being drowned.
Should he choose the latter option, then he could be asked to explain why we should trust confessions obtained from suspected “terrists” by implementing such procedures.
This could be an extremely popular and lucrative pay-per-view event — the MSM is passing up a potential cash cow by not following up on my suggestion.
Lt. Cmdr. Swift is quite correct as history shows.
I have been in the military at the front (and even way behind *enemy lines*) and worked in the *Intelligence* community.
This ridiculous charade of a so-called debate has never had, and never will have, anything whatsoever to do with gathering intelligence or validating intelligence. These people only love torture because it’s what they fantasize about. They either see it as a just punishment for those they hate (whoever that may be and is usually anyone who doesn’t agree with them) or because it’s a sexual fantasy for them.
Anyone who believes it is about morals, ethics or even right and wrong is a fool. People like Rivkin believe in none of those things.
I tried to stomach this bullshit interview for about 2 minutes but gave up after the little whine having something to do with “we’ve been waterboarding our own people for years to train them and that was ok so this must be ok, because if this is a crime, then that was a crime”….of course the other idiot didn’t even respond to that pathetic BS and the moderator didn’t follow up.
Something about CONSENTING to simulated torture techniques to train someone to resist is not the same as torture….and this guy is an “EXPERT”?!?!?! I am so sick of these douches!
Really, the biggest problem with the Democrats is that they backdown to people who believe this kind of stuff, like that torture is okay. Democrats need to lead the country to stay true to the Constitution and to our cultural mores. If the majority of American voters are so ignorant and vicious that they can’t realize it’s possible to respect the Constitution and not be “weak on terror,” then we should get that out in the open and start framing a strategy to separate ourselves, literally, from such people who are no longer adhering to democracy.
mrogi @ 21:
some how i get the feeling youd love to have all thoes things done to you! you havent mentioned thumb screws , bambo shoots driven under your fingernails or being spread eagled naked on a red ant hill yet!
Using right wing logic, here…
Rivkin’s views seem to be contrary to true American values. Therefore he is anti-American.
Let’s waterboard Rivkin until he admits he’s a traitor. One year down the road when he’s finally had enough and admits it, then I guess we’ll know waterboarding works.
Interesting side note: On 60 Minutes tonight, there was a piece about Saddam telling all to an FBI interrogator after he was captured. How did the FBI get the truth out of the man Pres. Bush claimed was such a threat to America? Surely we waterboarded Saddam like there was no tomorrow! We had to get the truth out of him!!! We had to find those hidden WMD!!!!!!! WATERBOARD! WATERBOARD!
Well, not exactly. The FBI agent just talked with him. Without any torture at all, just by talking over a period of time, he got Saddam to revealed all. Gee, is it that simple???
Torture works. If I was forced to listen to a boxed set CD collection of Yoko Ono albums, I would reveal the whole truth about everything from the Kennedy assassination to the sexual preference of Condoleeza Rice.
If Rivkin had any concept of what recruits go through in boot camp he would not equate that training to torture. Boot camp training is designed to place physical and mental stress on recruits and to teach fundamentals that they will use after boot camp. Boot camp is all about training, not torture as Rivkin suggests. It is incredibly offensive to hear these people who have no personal knowledge of the military make these comments. Watching a video doesn’t provide any insight whatsoever.
The belief in the military that used to be was that we would not torture simply because it shows weakness. Weakness made obvious is the most damaging thing that you can do in any conflict whether it is between nations or individuals. Supporting torture in the manner that Rivkin does is no different than those weak hangers-on to the playground bully. Too afraid to stand up for himself.
Snowball (#25) Is absolutely right. The purpose of torture is not to gain information. Torture is part of a campaign to terrorize, degrade, humiliate, and finally break those that the President has decided are his enemies. And by extension, torture damps down any opposition. That is, it helps to frighten patriotic Americans into silence. If it can be done to Mr. Padilla, it can be done to any American citizen. The first stage of torture by the “Holy Inquisition” was simply showing the instruments of torture to the victim. Many of the accused confessed and recanted, even if they were not guilty at all. All of us have now been shown the instruments of torture.
For further reading:
Shock DoctrineKlein
Discipline and PunishFoucoult
Terrorists are bad guys but so were the Nazis and we didn’t torture them.