Congress Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
By Nicole Belle Saturday Dec 08, 2007 8:30amWhen I first read this report, I admit that I got angry. Then I got smart. Look carefully at the names named in this report. Isn't it interesting that the WaPo reporters made sure to point out the Democrats in attendance when Congress was still operating under a Republican majority? Hmmm....who do you suppose could have leaked this story to the press to perhaps deflect from their own negative stories?
No matter how you slice it, there's some serious 'splaining that needs to be done, but the lopsidedness of this article makes me more than a little leery of its accuracy.
WaPo:
In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.
Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.[..]
"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.[..]
With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
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Paul in LA to defend N. Pelosi in 3...2...1...
I have lost all respect for my own country. I had always thought that even with occasional lapses, this country tried to do the right thing. Now I believe the country to be a vast hypocritical swamp, the degree of the rot is the only question left to ask.
No wonder Pelosi and Dems like her don't want impeachment. This, and stuff like it would be displayed for all to see. Seems they're part of the problem also.
Sorry, I apologize for my previous post. It was a bit juvenile to call out a fellow commenter.
So even though the administration denied it authorized the use of waterboarding (well, they can probably still deny they "authorized" it), we're learning more and more about how/when/where the waterboarding was performed, who it was performed on, and who knew about it. Has anyone gone back to the Bush Admin. and asked why they lied about this as well? Seems like Bush is employing the "Bernie Ebbers" (Worldcom) defense all to often these days. He's just the boss, but he leaves all the thinkin' and figurin' to everyone else. He doesn't know about this, he doesn't know about that, 10 million missing emails, etc.
SteveinSC @ 2:
Does that mean you are part of the "anti-American homegrown terrorist" crowd? CAREFUL what you say or write. The above statement could look bad when you are up for review from the Concerned Citizen Commission.
This report just reeks of Rove. The king at taking a small bit of truth and turning it into a twisted, perverted version of the truth. Now I could be wrong but it just seems to me...
marbotty @ 4:
Normally I would agree with you, but this particular commenter has been not only adamant in defending Pelosi for bizarrely keeping impeachment "off the table" but he has also seen fit to attack Lt. Watada, who is the only commissioned officer to courageously refuse to deploy to Iraq, recognizing that he would be participating in the illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq. This country needs more people like Watada, who are willing to stand up for their beliefs by saying NO to the war machine of the United States.
Regarding Pelosi, this is why this administration may bomb Iran, because it realizes that it has nothing to fear from the Democrats. It is also why Bush will continue to have the troops occupy Iraq, because he recognizes that the Democrats are too cowardly to cut off the funding.
We aren't what we used to pretend that we were. We have allowed these people (democrats included) to destroy everything we held most dear in our national self image. Now we are the nazi's, the russians, the koreans, the south vietnamese. We are the torturers, the invaders, the murderers. We are the people whose leaders terrorize them. We are what we have always fought against. The people we put in office to defend and protect the CONSTITUTION, NOT THE PEOPLE, have failed us miserably, and by allowing them to continue, we have failed ourselves and all that we held sacred.
Erroll @ 8:
Pelosi told America that she was not going to do her job the moment she got the position. If I did that with my boss, I would be fired. She has failed us again and again and again. She is unfit to lead congress. She is unfit to lead a girl scout troop.
Trying to defend participants based on a little biased reporting doesn't cut with me. Pelosi was there and may well have been the most senior and at present, the highest ranking congressperson present.
She knew about it and held her silence. What else does she know that she would'nt talk about? And it any information as such reflect on her reason to put impeachment off the table.
I had hopes for us(a) when she became speaker, thinking she was deflecting attention to let the committees silently build a case for impeachment.
Alas, she lacks integrity.
imagine if a girlscout troop leader announced that "selling cookies is OFF THE TABLE"
To Crabby McCrab @ 6
Fear what I write down? Bullshit !! I know they know me and my thoughts I've expressed on the web but if PAT TILLMAN had to be offed for his thoughts I couldn't be in better company. I would rather be dead right than a blind go along get along wimp who supports this shit.
So, it looks like Pelosi would be in legal jeopardy herself if she had pushed impeachment. Of course, she still may be if, as I hope, these stories coming out really begin to anger more people.
SteveinSC @ 2:
I think every person no matter where they are from thinks the same thing about their own nation at some point in time. There comes a point though when a person comes to the realization that something just does not fit what they are being told and so they question it. We have seen it with the rise of Hitler, Stalin and many others in the past. When someone says that Waterboarding is a good thing for "our security" it means it is just another of those tell tale red flags signaling that something is very wrong. In fact, I would bet that when it comes to torture, the Bush the regime is doing a lot more than just that. But, just like Hitler and his crimes, the true extent of what the Bush regime is doing around the world in the name of the American people will remain classified to the public.
This then begs the questions: What is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican?
It's been clear that the GOP Congress, almost without exception, has supported torture. The evidence breaks that only a few key Dems are complicit in it. But absolutely, Rockefeller, Reid, Graham and Pelosi should be booted. The Torturers and torturevangelists should be prosecuted and the proven enablers, at the least, should be dumped.
Who cares how many Dems were there, it's the system that is corupt not just the parties that we elect to administrate it. We have to go to publically funded elections and these bastards will fight that tooth and nail but we will win, I hope.
Brilliant pre-emptive move by the administration. By co-opting the opposition early in the process, they've insured that the dems won't get too loud about further escalation of these techniques, lest they embarrass themselves, or possibly even expose themselves to criminal prosecution.
I'm sure the Japanese internment in WWII was introduced the same way. A small innoculation introduced during a climate of fear and panic (Pearl Harbor) then the slow drip, drip, drip of escalation.
Being a torturer is like being a vampire. Once you've done it, you're changed forever.
marbotty @ 1:
hed lick clintons tanooky
foolme1ns @ 9:
I am afraid I have to agree. We trusted those people to do the right thing and they did betray us with few exceptions (Feingold, Kucinich and a few others ). But Americans are lazy (look at all of those who supposedly are not on the right supporting Ron Paul!). They don't bother to investigate any further than the latest blog written. Why aren't we recalling these people (Pelosi for one) and then recall the people who won't let the recall happen? There should be loud and continuous protests and not just whining in the blogs. I do what I can to protest but I am not young and that is what it's going to take, the younger generation to turn off their i-pods and realize their world is crumbling. I find it very sad and am glad I longer have to made the decision if I should have children. I hope the children I do have will not have to live in the kind of world that I foresee. It is most frightening.
To answer #17's question; essentially there is no difference. That's the big joke that's being played on all of us. Left, right, Republican, Democrat, all these politicians are part of the same machine - one meant to empower the few at the expense of the many (us). We're watching first-hand the demise of democracy. It was fun while it lasted...
more at my blog...
Jaffrey Dahmercracy on the march
The officials in charge of the briefings told the members of congress, the briefings were confidential and could not be dicussed with anyone. The representatives of "WE THE PEOPLE" should not be subject to this kind of secrecy. The case of knowing what is right or wrong should prevail over any secrecy oath.
Count me among those who are sceptical about this article. It could be true. It could be false. It could anywhere in between. I guess it depends on how much you trust (a) the WaPo, (b) named Rethuglican spokesmen (Porter Goss! Wow, there's integrity), and (c) unnamed spokesmen ("U.S. officials" and "a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position"). Personally, I'm not ready to give myself a coronary based on any or all of them.
So, let's vote for Hillary? Or Obama? Or some Democrat that will lie to your face. People, it's time to wake up and see that there is no difference between these Dems and Rep except their differnces in the rhetoric.
Please wake up. The Dems helped get us into this war to begin with. Nobody should be surprised that they stood by allowing torture when they stood by and allowed hundreds of thousands of people to die in Iraq. This just confirms that they are part of the war machine and if they had a conscience would never have another good night's sleep the rest of their lives.
There is no need for explanation.
These freaks need to resign....NOW
Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
I think it's safe to say that it was most likely Goss and Roberts who asked the "CIA to push harder".
If I remember correctly these people were sworn to secrecy . They could not talk about anything they were shown. Bush tried to use early the fact that the Dems knew about all this and many other unlawful acts when they became public. The Democrats involved explained that under law they couldn't expose any of this without being treasonous.
Our elected officials owe us an explanation.
I think all elected officials should follow Senator Tester's example and begin letting the voters know what they are doing. With the Internet, there is no reason they can't list their schedule online - letting us know what they are doing and with whom. We need more sunshine let us into our government. Sunshine also acts as a disinfectant.
terry740 @ 31:
My point exactly at #25. If this administration holds these people to secrecy, they call them traitors if they say anything. And they have the MSM to help them.
I agree that caution is in order. I especially like the "two lawmakers" piece-those two that pushed harder. That gives no attribution to party. Two officials say waterboarding was discussed-but Bob Graham who I trust a lot and who writes ALL down says he does not recall this. Don't pile on here till more is cleared up. Former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob Graham (D-FL) said “he has no memory of ever being told about waterboarding or other harsh tactics.” In discussing 2002 though do remember that the dems held the senate if tenuously.
tyree @ 21:
not only that, he'll lecture us on both why WE SHOULD lick it AND why we dont DESERVE to lcik it.
Folks, I saw this same shit happening in Vietnam back in '69. I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's.... I have to say though, WE didn't do it. We had the Kit Carsons do it. They were our NVA, VC-turned scouts. We stood by and watched them get information from the population this way. I vividly remember watching it happen.
Point is.....we've been torturing for sometime now. It's just we have played the game of "keeping our hands clean" by having others do the dirty work for us. We are hardly a "saintly nation" by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't trust anything I read or hear anymore from the MSM. It seems like they've all been bought off, at least to some extent. Everything must be viewed with skepticism. Let's never forget that this administration has been quite open about and proud of the fact that they create their own reality. That's what having power means to the radical right, and they've exploited it to the fullest.
Spicegal @ 37:
Select a chart: The Big Six
http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart.php?chart=main
As is discretely noted in the article, it's important to put the Sept. 2002 briefing into the timeline. This was on or near the 1 year anniversary of 9/11 and prior to the chimp's invasion of Eye-raq. There was still the feeling in the country and the world (us librul fruitcakes aside) that we had been unjustly wronged and that there was a reasonable hope of finding out just what happened and who did it.
Once the neo"cons" started their money pit in Iraq the need for greater oversight of the methods of interrogation went exponential since it wasn't just Osama bin Ladin that we'd be using these methods on. That surely changes the atmosphere.
The article is EXTREMELY disingenuous and as noted, reeks of Rove.
Given the choice of giving up their wealth or water boarding enemies the U.S. Gubberment is going to choose water boarding the enemies.
Thats the bottom line.
L.A. Confidential @ 40:
I forgot to put the celebrities in there with Gubberment.
Oprah and Bill Gates are going to give away their wealth right? With the idea that in order to speak for the poor and disadvantaged they need to live amongst them to truly understand their plight.
Ron @ 33:
I think you are right. I was going to say the same thing. It's not right but I think this is the case. Does anyone know how any of these people voted on the "Rape and Torture Act" aka the Military Commissions Act?
Japanese soldiers were tried as war criminals for doing less.
I voted for Gore and Kerry... and last November for democrats.... the realization that the democrats have been in on it has sunk in more and more every month since November... this is why I now have given well over $1000 and many hours of my time putting out literature on cars at malls and other such actions in a final attempt at a peaceful change by supporting RON PAUL...
RON PAUL KNEW... and he tried to warn us at least since 1997 and most certainly since 2002...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk
terry740 @ 31:
That's what we learned from Sen. Rockefeller this morning on one of the shows. He said all he was told was classified and to this day he cannot say what it was. He did say when he was told it upset him very much and he tried to get several votes through that would change things, but each time he lost almost exactly right down party lines.
He couldn't even say what he knew about the tapes that were destroyed or if there are more tapes.
"Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."
I'm not sure I'd trust anything this guy said. Remember, working for the CIA is like working for the Mafia, you don't get out that easily, and you don't get to the top position by not knowing how the agency works, and some of the "dirty little secrets".
This guy claimed to have been retired from the CIA when he was serving in Congress, a claim that a lot of people, including myself, find highly dubious. And I recall that he left his position in the Senate to do WHAT......Oh yeah...that's right....be installed as the head OF the CIA.
It kind of boils down to this, for me; I don't even trust everything that Valerie Plame or Larry Johnson say about the Plame case to be 100% the truth. Aside from the idea that there are many sides to any story, I would think that there are pieces of the truth that have to be held back due to the nature of the job that CIA operatives have to do.
I wouldn't trust Porter Goss's interpretation of the events in the room that day, any more than I would trust Karl Rove's account of ....well ...anything. Goss is a known liar, and is of questionable character in other aspects of his life.
Also, I'd be willing to give Jane Harmon a bit of a pass on this. I can't believe that she was in agreement with what she saw that day for several reasons, that are mentioned in the full article. Also, there is the testy relationship she shares with speaker Pelosi. There has to be a reason for that other than "girls being girls." They genuinely don't like each other, and for a seemingly good, but unspoken, reason.
This article is definitely slanted with a Republican spin, but in reading the full article, it is difficult to really put a finger on what was seen on that day, and who was outspoken against it, and who was not, and why. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances here, and also a lot of bad journalism in the article.(and it took two people to write it...please.) I'm with Nicole....this is just a peice that was done to raise some hackles and deflect the attention from the bigger stories of the moment, like the fact that the CIA was destroying video tapes that were ordered by Congress and the courts system. (who was running the CIA at that time....was it...Porter Goss? )
I can only Hope the Dems. can muster the courage to get rid of Pelosi
and get someone in there with Drop of conviction in there Veins.
Please, someone tell me why I should continue to vote for Democrats. I always argue that they are the "lesser of evils" but now I wonder if the cynics are right and Democrats like Pelosi are really all the same as Republicans, just with a different name.
To fully appreciate and understand how this stuff works, one should become a knowledgeable fan of professional wrestling. It's ballet with a bluster. No one gets (that badly) hurt.
Politics, because there are more variables in play, is more spontaneous, less "orchestrated" but the underlying principles are a pretty good fit. Pork spending, tickets and media coverage/advertising sales --- different currencies to be sure, but not SO different.
Nowhere was this more on display than in the case of Sandy Berger. But this one will be a good case study, too. Every now and then one of the participants gets suspended, so as to create the illusion of "principle", but that's just part of the charade.
Until someone runs, probably on a 3rd party ticket stressing it, on "open and honest representational government" I'm not going to be an active player. One can only hold one's nose so long, and then one needs to step outside for some fresh air.
I left the Republican Party years ago, became an Independent and have consistently voted Democrat. In the last few years however, I find that they are just as crooked as the Party I left and my question is, where do these of us who are totally disgusted with both Parties go? I have never missed voting in a Presidential Race, but couldn't in good conscience vote for any of the Front Runners from either Party (or Ron Paul for that matter). Why do we as Americans elect Presidents based on their Star Power rather than experience and respect for our Constitution. When I became a citizen, many years ago, I was so very proud, but this is not the America it was then. Very sad!
joefromla @ 48:
You know how bad the republicans are. They have taken our country to the lowest approval, ever, in the world's eyes. The dems have never been as bad.
Crabby McCrab @ 6:
Spreading fear to create silence should be a treasonable offense.
I feel that the Village kabuki has started to get completely out of control, and there's starting to be real blood on the stage, instead of fake blood. Sure, the story was released to hurt the Democratic leadership, that goes without saying. "Sun slated to appear in East." But information like this is only really useful, as blackmail, if it is kept secret; so why it was released now is an interesting question (unless, of course, what is still secret is unimaginably worse, a real possibility, given the givens). The fingerpointing and the blamefixing and the rush for the exits reminds me forcibly of the mortgage meltdown -- also the fact that one thing that makes the situation so bad is that we really don't know, even now, how bad the situation is, and the longer we wait while fearing to find out, the worse it gets.
I understand the argument about the oath of secrecy, et cetera, et cetera. I might have some sympathy for it unless, as I wrote elsewhere:
Once again, the Democratic leadership brought a Hello Kitty pencil case to a gunfight; assuming they wanted to fight at all.
Harley @ 43:
I hate to say this but I really find your goverment pathetic. Waterboarding goes back to WW 2. The Japanese military used it on prisoners. During the war crimes trials in Tokyo after the war soldiers were called to account for their crimes.
The Allies called waterboarding torture then. How in the hell does your goverment(which we all know has taken the "moral highground" on the war on terror) get away with this. Imagine what would happen if the insurgents in iraq waterboarded an american soldier. Your goverment wouold probably invoke the ghost of General Curtis LeMay and "bomb them back to the stone age"
If these allegations are true Nancy Pelosi should resign. If true, she is a disgrace to our party. No wonder she kept impeachment off the table!! She was complicit in Bush's crimes. Its absolutely disgusting.
You can tell Nancy Pelosi how you feel about these revelations here:
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/
There is not a Republican Party or a Democrat Party. There is a War Party. They care more about protecting and defending the Corporations, The Military Industrial Complex, and the Zionist Apartheid State in Palestine then they do about the protecting and defending the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. Homeland. We live in a age of U.S. Corporate Media Propaganda, Rigged Polls, Rigged Elections, when we try to petition our grievances, we are put in a free speech cage, even here on crooks and liars any mention of the infamous Nine Eleven attack our words are scrubbed into the memory hole. Like when John F. Kennedy said, "When Peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable." We need to bring down this tyrannical govenment, start over.
I made a little image to accompany this moment in time:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2098279408_626094b89a.jpg
This reference to "at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder" and then later the mention of only two Repubs, is designed to deliberately protect Goss and Roberts from being fingered as the "the two lawmakers." Instead, the only names mentioned in any incriminating manner whatsoever are those of the Dems.
Washington Post is supposed to be a source of reliable, unequivocal information, but instead it becomes a focus of "whodunnit" speculation amongst its readers. All this article does is deflect attention away from bush and towards the Dems. Mission Accomplished, eh?
> who do you suppose could have leaked this story to the press to perhaps deflect from their own negative stories?
The very subject of my most recent blog entry yesterday!
Is There a WH Mole at the CIA? - Did WH leak news of CIA tape destruction in retaliation for NIE embarrassment?
If the point is to demonstrate that war criminals (soulless fucks who cannot discern evil) can and do inhabit both parties, the lesson is not needed. It is not the party label that matters but the character of our leaders and the American public.
Are we a nation that supports the torture, rape and murder of individuals (wantonly disregarding their humanity and in the process destroying our claim to same) because, in truth, waterboarding is not the most depraved acts perpetrated in our name.
Well....are we?
As much as most of the dems suck, they have some good members in their ranks. If Ron Paul is the best thing the republicans can put up, then I'll still take the lesser of two bullies.
Ron Paul is a republican. He would do nothing to prevent the rich from getting richer, would do nothing to help the poor, sick and needy.
Since Pelosi's complicit in war crimes, now we understand why America will never see justice leveled at the Bush Regime.
Jesusturnedwaterboardingintowhine @ 28:
156 members of Congress voted against the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq.
Senate
21 Democrat
1 Republican
1 Independent
House
126 Democrat
6 Republican
1 Independent
So for all of you that say there is no difference between the Democratic Party and the Repigs, I say quit lying.
What's with the green ties? Hume, Gingrich and I think Bush earlier this last week. Remember the red ties in 2004 and 2006. Are they trying to get the green party vote? I would hate to be a republican.
No doubt these democrats/republicans who visited and approved of these techniques are worried they too might be indicted/implicated in war crimes...., that is why one does not see much pressure from democrats on impeachment of Bush, he has his supporters who have turned a blind eye too his administrations crimes, likely the only day any of these evil people who seem too think the end justifies the means like the Nazi' did during world war II, will ever face any judgment will be before Jesus, and he without a doubt will give them a harsher technique of justice than any earthly evil these people seemed too condone..., eternity is a long time to pay for ones earthly sins/crimes...
(D) or (R) they all need to lose their f*cking jobs. At the very least.
Is it not truly ironic a technique that was used during the middle ages and is well known as torture, is today even debated and twisted as not torture, but merely harsh techniques..., kind've like the Spanish Inquisition which also was infamous for torture used these techniques, funny how we today can even joke or question them as anything but what they are, pure and simple torture, done by people who have no morality, no souls, since it is well known it takes a specially evil and cold person too torture another human being, we make heros of them on television as if they have done some humanitarian act, but in reality they are the worst in our society who can do these acts of torture and those who condone it, order it are just as bad as the ones carrying it out, and unfortunately these type of people have been in our world since god put man here...
Shared Humanity provides part of the stats, and those are well taken. But it also should be noted that 38% of the Senate votes "for" (war) came from Democrats; 27% of the votes "for" in the House were Democrats.
Just in the interest of full disclosure, not to change Shared's major point that there IS a difference; just not quite as stark as the partial data (votes against) would indicate at first blush
Go read Glenn Greenwald on this topic.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/12/09/democrats/print.html
joefromla @ 48:
I am sad to say that because of the way our system is set up, that is your choice. If you don't vote Dem, the Repugs get another shot at us. I am a registered Green, I know how frustrating this system is.
Direct your anger in the right direction: vilify the people who voted the Military Commissions Act into law.
We are a nation of laws (except for the ones the President deems unnecessary).
That said, I have to ask: What did Nancy know and when did she know it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loUTeMDxiQM
Terry Ott @ 69:
Yeah, there's a difference, just like Coke and Pepsi are literally different. If you tried to claim that they are the same, you'd probably hear from their lawyers and from their respective legions of brand loyal drinkers.
However, as has been said before, to the disinterested, it is plain that both Coke and Pepsi are both colored sugar water with over 95% identical ingredients, and as such, and especially compared to alternative beverages like fresh fruit juice, Coke and Pepsi are the SAME.
The Dems and the Rethugs are BOTH Capitalist, Imperialist, Prohibitionist parties.
C.I.P. policies advance quickly under one party, more slowly under the other, and intelligent people keep mistaking this change of acceleration for a change in direction.
But I know better than to hate on the players without mentioning the game, which is why I advocate Instant Runoff Voting, because it is unreasonable to expect good politicians/representatives to come out of a rigged system.
http://fairvote.org/
I think Nicole has forgotten that the Senate was still under Dem control in Sept. 2002. That said, it does seem we have typical murky WaPo reporting. If four members of Congress were briefed in 2002, that would have been, one assumes, the chairs and ranking members of the House and Senate Intell committees: Goss, Hartman, Rockefeller, Roberts. Where Pelosi comes in is beyond me (I don't think she was on the Intell committee). The article fails to clarify that the Senate was Republican controled from Jan. 2003 onward. Finally, let us not forget that everything relative to the CIA (just as with NSA) was Classified, meaning that there could be little if any "oversight" from Congress and probably "sworn to secrecy" requirement on top of it (remember how Rockefeller actually had to send a personal handwritten note to Cheney in respect to NSA).
Found a comment over at the lake that makes sense to me:
MarkC December 9th, 2007 at 6:05 am
20
I want to put two of the above statements together. First, ew said:
We need to find a way to make intelligence oversight useful. On every major revelation like this, we have had at least one Democratic leader who objects to illegal practices. Yet that person is virtually helpless to respond.
Then, Selise said:
this article is pushback and a warning from the administration to the dems in congress - follow through on the investigations you are calling for (destroyed torture tapes, etc) and we will take you down with us.
These are both true — and that’s why I (uncharacteristically) think that the rush to condemn Pelosi is unproductive. Remember this was 2002, when no dissent was brooked, either in the media or in Washington. I’m not saying that she was right to have sat on her hands, but she was neither where she was today, nor are we where we are today. Clearly, as Selise notes, the point of this leak is to have us turn on Pelosi and in so doing insulate the Republicans from more sunlight. I think that a little historical context, and a little utilitarian forgiveness, are in order. I think our message should be that she should have objected then, but that she can redeem herself only by bringing the house down on the Republicans who essentially ran a one-party government in 2002.
Screw the criminal tyrannical bankrupt government, Democrats and Republicans. Quit appeasing these criminals. RON PAUL 2008
It has reached the point of no return in our country. We have a political /corporate profit base for a government and nothing is going to stand in the way of that. I am bitterly tired of the Dems--more so because they were my party and I hold them responsible for allowing all of this to happen. No matter how many times they cry foul they have not stood up to anything when it comes to accountablilty because they are complicit. The media is destroying all the interests of the common good and the pols are nothing more than a living breathing joke of a cosmic order. And the electorate are feeding their addiction to food,shopping and mindless reality shows. So will go on living and doing the best I can---knowing that we still have some hope with all the voices out there that are sick to death with the criminality that is our government.
marbotty @ 4:
Don't feel too bad. I read the WAPO article over at HP and came running through the tubes to C&L to find out what Paul in LA had to say... Looks like he's not here today.
Post American @ 76:
Give me a break. Ron Paul was the govt. too. Take that theoretical Libertarian crap down the road.
disgusted? angry?
DO Something!!!!
NewsAlert@letters.washingtonpost.com, letters@washpost.com, webnews@washingtonpost.com, georgewill@washpost.com, jimhoagland@washpost.com, ombudsman@washpost.com, kurtzh@washpost.com, abramowitz@washpost.com, achenbachj@washpost.com, allenh@washpost.com, allenm@washpost.com, aranam@washpost.com, argetsinger@washpost.com, balzd@washpost.com, barrj@washpost.com, barrs@washpost.com, bennettp@washpost.com, benningv@washpost.com, beyersd@washpost.com, bonesteelm@washpost.com, boustanyn@washpost.com, religion@washpost.com, brownw@washpost.com, browar57@aol.com, carlsonp@washpost.com, castanedar@washpost.com, rajiv@washpost.com, chod@washpost.com, clarkp@washpost.com, cohensh@washpost.com, coopermana@washpost.com, copelandl@washpost.com, davenportc@washpost.com, davisp@washpost.com, deaned@washpost.com, deinerj@washpost.com, deyoungk@washpost.com, dobbsm@washpost.com, drezenr@washpost.com, duttj@washpost.com, dvorakp@washpost.com, eggend@washpost.com, ahrensf@washpost.com, aizenmann@washpost.com, nightwatch@washpost.com, donovanc@washpost.com
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/12/09/democrats/index.html
Perhaps we now know what the Repubs have on the Dem leadership...
Otay @ 81:
"Perhaps..." ???