Bill Moyers' Journal: On King & Johnson, Obama & Clinton
By Nicole Belle Friday Jan 18, 2008 4:05pm
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Bill Moyers, who was Lyndon Johnson's press secretary from 1965-1967, gives his perspective on the "tempest in a teapot" of the Hillary vs. Obama media brawl over LBJ and MLK:
As the pressure intensified on each side, Johnson wanted King to wait a little longer and give him a chance to bring Congress around by hook or crook. But Martin Luther King said his people had already waited too long. He talked about the murders and lynchings, the churches set on fire, children brutalized, the law defied, men and women humiliated, their lives exhausted, their hearts broken. LBJ listened, as intently as I ever saw him listen. He listened, and then he put his hand on Martin Luther King's shoulder, and said, in effect: "OK. You go out there Dr. King and keep doing what you're doing, and make it possible for me to do the right thing." Lyndon Johnson was no racist but he had not been a civil rights hero, either. Now, as president, he came down on the side of civil disobedience, believing it might quicken America's conscience until the cry for justice became irresistible, enabling him to turn Congress. So King marched and Johnson maneuvered and Congress folded.
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MLK should be spinning in his grave these days.
HILLARY CLINTON: "Dr. King's dream began to be realized when President Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, when he was able to get through Congress something that President Kennedy was hopeful to do, the president before had not even tried, but it took a president to get it done."
Lest We Forget: Hillary Clinton supported Barry Goldwater in 1964.
God bless Bill Moyers and the people at PBS for putting him back on the air. Required weekly watching.
I saw this segment last night. It was a nice, sane, sober take from somebody who was there. This whole thing was blown waaaaay out of proportion.
LongTooth @ 2:
Who cares about that? There's plenty she's done recently to prove she's a shill for the corporate elite but I could give a rats ass who anyone supported 44 years ago.
Geez.
Bill Moyers is one of the best contemporary thinkers in this country. His commentary is both insightful and inspirational at the same time. Let's cherish these great men while they last as I don't see anyone else standing up to the mantle. Amy Goodman and a few investigative journalists are just a tiny group of people in that mold.
Please don't reply to this thread saying the name of any corporate 'newsperson' who would emulate him because there is none who comes close in the corporate media. Btw, Charlie Rose is joke of for a journalist/interviewer relative to Bill Moyers.
Has Moyers ever commented in Dick Goodwin's perspective on their work with LBJ in "Remembering America"? Goodwin says they both thought he was certifiably nuts.
We should all take a moment and be grateful for Mr. Moyer's voice of reason. We still have a long and brutal year ahead of us.
I agree its not racial, but still her comments seemed to take some glory from MLK, and one has to wonder what point she was trying to make. Yes I know what she said was true but my question still stands, what point was she trying to make in saying what she said? In other words, in a racially charged atmosphere, why did she take the time to point out that MLK couldn't have accomplished what he did without LBJ?
Johnny2Bad: The point being, Johnny Bad Ass, is Hillary wasn't a kid in '64. She was a college student, if she hadn't already graduated, and was old enough to have known better.
Goodwin's the guy who wrote the 1965 Civil Rights speech, btw.
Nice bit of history. Thanks for posting. More historical bits would be nice.
I liked when when Moyer said in closing "Reminding us that a president matters, and so do we."
Thank you! If there's gonna be a giant stink about the matter, the least we can all do is look into what really happened...as opposed to how either campaign wants to spin things.
hug the moon @ 12:
Today, the resident matters but Do We?
After seeing this piece by Moyers (a wonderful, beautifully understated piece, by the way, which is rare these days), I realise that there was a whole lot more to this. I don't think Hillary (who I do not like at all) was being racist, but she didn't show as much sensitivity as she should have, especially to the most reliable voting bloc that the Dems have. It definitely fed into the "Clintons trash the base again/Sister Souljah" narrative, but it wasn't as egregious as many thought.
Still, Hillary should be more careful when she talks about stuff like this, and she should play nice with the base, because she ain't gonna win without them.
It was nice to see/hear from someone who was actually there.
It took a democratic president from a southern state to pull it off...
Senator Dirksen from Illinois also had a big hand in it by bringing around the Republicans...
The 1964 Civil Rights act was no easy task...
Were it not for the Vietnam War, Johnson's "legacy" would have been easily equal to FD Roosevelt's.
Credit should go where credit is due...
As for Hillary's remarks... I listened to them... in context... there was nothing remotely racist or disparaging of Dr King...
Some of you folks need to pay attention.
LongTooth @ 2:
So? Goldwater conservative is an extinct species of Repbulican. Goldwater would be considerd a Liberal and slimed for some of his stances.
longtooth, you are a moron. graduated college? she was 17 in '64...her first year at Wellesley was in '65. research your facts before you make yourself look like a boob. regardless, most 17 year olds have their heads up their ass. go ahead and ask a 17 year old who they support and see what brilliant responses you get. if you are going to hold candidates responsible for stances they held when they were 17, you won't have much of a field to vote for...
Filthy Harry @ 9:
She was pointing out that it took more then 1 person to bring about civil rights. And pointing out rather bluntly, that it is a two way street. What's so hard to understand about that?
VOTE MITT ROMNEY! ROMNEY IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE PROMISING AFFORDABLE MAGICAL UNDERWEAR FOR ALL AMERICANS!
Peter Hollman @16: "The 1964 Civil Rights act was no easy task…".
This note from history strikes me. It's been less than fifty years since African-Americans gained the right to vote. Though 'tis true 'tis progress, the wheels of progressive change grind too slowly, and sometimes regressive change happens overnight.
But if one thinks forty-two years is a short time span, consider this: Mitt Romney's church, the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) only allowed black males access to church priesthood back in '78, a mere thirty years ago. Women, of any color, are still denied full leadership in the Mormon church. Mitt Romney still adheres lock, stock, and barrel to a church doctrine openly espousing discrimination against women. My, my, aren't "family values" just peachy?
Loosely Twisted @ 19:
Yeah, I understand that. That's not hard. The question is why was she pointing it out?
great segment
notlongtooth @ 18:
true dat, I was 16 when the 1991 Gulf War started and I believed that Saddam was an evil doer and that H.W.Bush and the Allies were G.I.Joe heroes.
The older I got, the more cynical and skeptical I became.
at 16, 17 or even 18 years old, you will believe that Presidents are supposed to be good and honorable to the bone. Only when you grow older and get informed do you debunk your old perceptions.
So judging Hillary at age 17 is really pointless. Especially when I thought the 91 Gulf War to be a cool thing at age 16
Oh - for a thousand Bill Moyers or ---- for more people to watch him --- and to understand him.
I don't think Hillary's remark was out of line - I don't have it in context either but, to me, it was talking about the (unfortunate) incredible power of the President.
I'm also curious when someone said she voted for Goldwater and someone else said she was 17. I thought you couldn't vote until you were 21 - or maybe that changed before that?
Yet to this day you can go to Furnitureland South in Greensboro, NC and you won't find more than a few black people in any job where they could be viewed by the public, even though there are almost 800 total employees. Out of about 180 salespeople, 3 might be identified as black in an area that is approximately 30% self-identified black.
If I read Title VII of the Federal Civil Rights Act this is a clear violation.
Dr. King started a civil rights movement, LBJ nudged it, but it is nowhere near a complete movement.
I've complained to Al Sharpton, Rainbow Push Coalition, and NAACP with no reply. At this point I don't think anyone can claim credit for anything but starting the equal rights movement. And in this Dr. King and LBJ might be seen as equals, but in no way do I think LBJ made it happen. It take the people of the land for that to happen.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/19/162953/644/790/439573
Hillary Clinton is turning out to be the Tanya Harding of politics
SPREAD THE WORD. THIS MUST NOT STAND>
Hillary's MLK statement doesn't offend me as much as the right wing changes that occurred in the Clinton administration that put more people of color in prison for nonviolent crimes.
Pardon the cynical view but ..
LBJ et al passed the Civil Rights Act & the Voting Rights Act because:
(1) If they hadn't done so, the death toll from the movement and the ugly pictures on TV would only have gotten worse. If you were there you know how bad it was already.
(2) It allowed the Corporatists to gain control of the politics and the economy of The South, after having devastated its infrastructure a hundred years earlier during the Civil War and having just begun to rebuild it after World War Two.
Filthy Harry,
The point is that they're running for President, not civil rights leader.
If Obama thinks street action is more effective than being in Washington,
perhaps he should go back to Chicago and hit the streets again.
But obviously LBJ pushed a lot through in Washington. Having someone
on the outsider to provide the political urgency helped make a great team.
MountainMan23-
LBJ was already dealing with these issues in the Senate and as VP (his primary focus).
notlongtooth: Bullshit. Hillary was not a high school student in '64. She was in college (if not out), and was old enough to know better. Her political instincts have never strayed from her Goldwater bedrock.
Desider @ 30:
Thank you! That is exactly the kind of evaluation you just won't get in the media.
If the vote were held today, Obama would either vote "present", or skip the vote entirely.
Fucking hell, that was a great segment. Poignant, but it also gives me hope.
Barack Obama for president!
telcontal @ 6:
That may well be true, but WHERE IS THE DISCLOSURE?
Bill Moyers was LBJ's top aide.
Bill Moyers KNOWS that LBJ endorsed Hoover's wiretapping and harassment of MLK Jr., especially once King came out against the Vietnam War.
The FBI, as part of doing so, eventually alerted every racist in Memphis and the South at large that MLK Jr. which motel he was staying at, leading to his assassination. Moyers KNOWS, and knew then, that the Gulf of Tonkin event did not happen. He also knew that Johnson believed the war was hopeless from the very first days. And I think he knew about LBJ's corruption (Halliburton), driving the policy.
He was complicit in the illegal spying on King, and while I love the guy for his fight back against Bush's fascism, he did zero to stop LBJ's (he did express the belief that LBJ was suffering from paranoia), and zero to protect King (not that he could control LBJ).
Hero in that case? LBJ Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who tried to stop Hoover (denying him warrants for wiretaps on King's home), and refused LBJ's pressure to go along with Hoover (who was character-assassinating King at an increasing pace throughout the 60s until his, in part FBI-induced, murder).
is ir really so hard to believe that mlk whose dream was equality for all races, and lbj whose own dream was the "great society" could not both, a black man and a white man, work together for the good of humanity?
where do their ideas conflict with each others except in other minds wishing to co-opt their legacies for their own ends?
Desider @ 30:
The Truth Hurts The Media's Objectives
The plan to paint Hillary Clinton has a racist just got delivered a crushing blow. With videos like the one accompanying this story, highlighting the energy associated with the actual historical moments, you have got to be wondering how those in conservative media thought they could get away with a clear distortion of history.
The truth can sometime claim what it needs to set the record straight. In this instance, the truth need only point to the spirit of working together, which is what Clinton was trying to say in her statement.
I hope truth finds its way to some of the other distortions and lies associated with this election. There are truly many. Especially, to see the media start and create distortions, ask stupid question about how much damage they inflect, and set back and act as if they were nothing but "fair and balance" about the matter is the nothing but a lie. It is almost as if every word they speak, every story they report, or create, has an agenda attached to it, and it is not in the interest of the truth.
Today truth shined and showed the voters how far lies are from the record. This was a very enlighten story.
Joseph
sassafra @ 36:
LBJ was not working for 'the good of humanity' in SE Asia. He was working for the good of the corporations that built the massive airbase at Da Nang, and elsewhere in the military-industrial complex.
Eisenhower was warning the U.S. about JOHNSON (et al.).
Loop @ 31:
Wrong. She went to college in 1965.
JasonH @ 26:
How would it be? Racism has not disappeared by magic.
The suggestion that "LBJ nudged it" is hilarious. LBJ rammed all three bills through Congress -- and NO ONE else could have.
MLK Jr., without LBJ's incredible political gamesmanship, would have been discredited by 1966. The violent activism of SNCC and Stokely Carmichael would have taken over the movement, and there would have been massive bloodshed.
24 Fil: Well, Fil, I disagree.
The terms in '64 boiled down to "should the nigger have the same rights as decent white people"?
Hillary Clinton backed Golwater. She endorsed segregation. She endorsed keeping colored's in their place.
She was old enough to know better.
#5 Great post. I think it's worth noting, though, that the FBI under Hoover was a bit KGB-ish, and the balance of power between Hoover and LBJ was not quite the same as between, say, Dubya and Mueller.
That said, I hate illegal spying, and it's good for us to recognize that illegal spying didn't start with Nixon.
Jill Bryant @ 25:
She worked for the Goldwater campaign, but was not old enough to vote.
Hillary Clinton had a change of heart due to the Vietnam war and the civil rights movement. She worked for Nixon when she was 13, and worked for the Nixon impeachment committees when she was just out of college.
Peter Hollman @ 16:
You mistake a Yellow Dog for a Democrat. They were DINOs, and LBJ was a DINO, a Republican by any measure. He wanted to be REELECTED by Democrats, so he handed the Dems their biggest win in nearly thirty years.
Paul in LA @ 39:
uh huh, so according to that logic the reason lbj refused renomination for a second term is that he was all hot to keep the war on? bunk. the war totaled his health, domestic policies, and his party's unity. he hated it.
Loop @ 42:
She was raised in a conservative household and her mentors were anti-Communist yet civil rights supporting conservatives. She is not a racist and has never been one; and her support of Goldwater was not racism.
She grew up. She got a college education, and was deeply affected by LBJ's accomplishments and the change occuring in America, even though she was president of the Young Republicans at Wellesley.
• Then she worked for and voted for Eugene McCarthy (as I did).
If you don't allow people (and especially young people) to change, this isn't America. Seeking to attack her for becoming a centrist Dem instead of a center-right Republican is absurd. Her liberalism caused her to reject the R party and its policies. Since that time, she has been attacked by the rightwing on a scale that would wither almost anyone. And now, by the left, who fall all over themselves trying to make her a demon.
Widespread @ 43:
Sorry, meant #35, Paul In L.A.
Rock on.
sassafra @ 46:
He was half-dead, and had lost the South, and had ZERO chance of being reelected. He counted the votes, and measured his energy, and knew it wasn't enough. So he thought that by shocking the country by refusing the nomination he would gain a bit more political power for some last gambits. And, indeed, after announcing he would not run, he rammed through the 1968 Fair Housing Act (using King's assassination as the grease).
It was an UGLY decade, and trying to make it a fairy tale is part of our problems. LBJ was NOT an idealist, he was the biggest realist in domestic politics anyone has ever been. It was all about -his- power, and as such, all about corporate power.
Read Caro, Master of the Senate (or the earlier books in the series). LBJ was a force of nature, and he leveled American racism just as he was leveling SE Asia. He supported MLK Jr. so long as MLK Jr. supported him. And when MLK Jr. strayed, opposing Vietnam as fundamentally inhumane and morally repugnant -- as it was -- LBJ gave Hoover the green light to character assassinate King, leading to his untimely death.
An impossibly ugly story. One of many. "Own them all."
Just because you have bills doesn't mean anything unless it's followed and enforced. Those bills are commonly disregarded in parts of the South and there is no interest in enforcing them.
So LBJ rammed some pieces of paper through. So what?
There is still massive bloodshed. It's just that heavy handed law enforcement groups have been able to redirect that violence into black-on-black.
There have been a lot of changes. But black friends of mine still get followed through small shops, students give up because they can make more money selling drugs than sweeping floors, and companies refuse to hire blacks for anything but warehouse of telephone operators.
Paul in LA @ 41:
Got MLK?
Paul in LA @ 49:
neither mlk or lbj were saints, but they were great men of vision who knew how to cut a deal (a talent sadly lost on either side of the aisle and across most of the political spectrum nowadays).
Paul in LA @ 35:
in "the men who killed kennedy", a documentary aired on the history channel (until ladybird, peanuts carter and gerry ford intervened), lyndon b. johnson is directly implicated as a co-conspirator in the assassination of an american president.
furthermore, former c.i.a. agent and watergate burglar implicated johnson in his deathbed confession to his son, reported in rolling stone early last year.
listen to the actual audio by clicking on this link and scrolling down a bit.
so, no, i too refuse to heap accolades on lbj. not only for his knowledge that the gulf of tonkin incident was a fabrication, as revealed by the freedom of information act, but because he seems to have been involved in the texas conspiracy to murder a jfk.
in fact, i have him rated as the 4th worst president in u.s. history.
JasonH @ 51:
The effect of LBJ's accomplishments was GIGANTIC.
Trivializing them is silly. It was an earthquake that moved EVERYTHING.
• Black representation in Congress and in state legislatures went from basically zero to nearly-representative levels as a direct result of forcing the recognition of black rights to vote (even with the ongoing fraud).
• The Black middle class is a DIRECT result of LBJ's 64 civil rights bill (and the 68 Fair Housing act). Blacks gained access to hotels, motels, restaurants, etc., and were able as a result to TRAVEL in search of employment (instead of by a sort of underground railroad, as in the 50s).
• The rights of all Americans to be free from prejudice in gov't and society went forward dramatically. The social changes of the decades were resisted mightily by the continued Establishment, but these victories handed to us by LBJ broke open the floodgates of change.
Denying that is denying too much. Trying to make it a fairy tale is equally bad. For SURE it was not a fairy tale world to LBJ, or to MLK Jr. Both knew how ugly the present was, but only MLK Jr. was a religious idealist. It was a deal with the devil, but when the devil wanted to impoverish America through an illegal war, MLK Jr. took his fight back, and LBJ never forgave him.
*i meant to say former c.i.a. agent and watergate burglar E. HOWARD HUNT. (sorry monitors, i'll try to remember to hit that preview button more often!)
ROM Spaceknight @ 54:
The Fake History Channel is a rightwing operation that hands out lies like lollipops. Do your mind a favor-- Boycott the Fake History Channel (and related channels).
Your rating of LBJ just points out how useless the term 'worst' is.
Paul in LA @ 55:
LBJ was a scumbag who knew the gulf of tonkin incident was fabricated. he also knew vietnam was unwinnable as far back as early as 1968. 58,000 americans dead for no reason, as well as countless vietnamese.
Paul in LA @ 57:
Paul in LA @ 57:
watch the entire documentary, listen to the audio of e. howard hunt's deathbed confession, then report back to me, paul.
lbj = 4th worst president in history, after only george w. bush, richard nixon and george h. w. bush.
ROM Spaceknight @ 58:
The indictment of his direct involvement with the military-industrial complex is quite correct, but your linking it to his civil rights ACCOMPLISHMENTS is incorrect.
You have to take both the red AND the blue pill. It is silly to try to take away LBJ's immense domestic accomplishments. You can't do it -- he did those things specifically so history could not just close the door on his record, as many try to.
Recognize that there are many who applaud Vietnam and call him a scumbag for helping the Negroes. He knew it -- he was twice as evil as Nixon, and Nixon was flat-out afraid of him, but so was George Wallace. LBJ knew how to wield power, and did so. We have to take our lumps with the sugar, and try to bridge the contradictions of our history.
MLK Jr. was roundly despised by the more radical movement. Don't forget that they thought he was a Tom for dealing with Johnson. And don't forget "Burn, baby, burn!" which was the SNCC flipside of KKK insanity. But for LBJ's legislative accomplishments as President, the history would have been even more bleak (domestically).
ROM Spaceknight @ 59:
Nope. BOYCOTT that crap, and get your history from BOOKS. You can find that audio tape on the Internet -- you don't need the rightwing bs that uses it to feather their own bed.
At least check the copyright. Anything post-2000 is hardcore propaganda.
Paul in LA @ 60:
if lbj was in on the jfk assassination, as credible evidence seems to suggest he was, and if the gulf of tonkin incident was fabricated, as we now know it was, no amount of positive achievements johnson accomplished will allow me to forgive him.
it's that simple.
ROM Spaceknight @ 59:
You are ignoring a LOT of history.
Find the equivalent POSITIVE actions by those others. Can't find them, though people try to make Nixon's Mao-toesucking trip to China some sort of great accomplishment.
The power of the U.S. makes the wars of modern presidents more destructive than those in the past (in general). That tilt is not directly the 'fault' of those presidents, it was their times. Nor should the Scapegoat method of history become the main one. HUGE powerful interests are running (and seeking to run) our society, and ANY president will have to contend with those. There are no fairy tales, and candidates who pretend to offer some are just blowing smoke.
ROM Spaceknight @ 62:
It's that simplistic.
Paul in LA @ 61:
i will not take you seriously until you actually examine the links i've given you. willful ignorance may be comforting, but it's as bull$#!+ as the easter bunny, and santa claus.
you know you can't prove i'm wrong about gulf of tonkin, why don't you see if you can prove me wrong on lbj's alleged complicity in jfk's murder?
and it's not just lbj the documentary implicates, it's all of rightwing texas, circa 1963. guys like h. l. hunt. and the entire southern rogue spook network, from miami to new orleans to dallas.
Anyhow, please DON'T 'forgive' LBJ. I certainly don't.
But don't try to deny his accomplishments, because they were his, and like airbases in Iraq they are a fait accompli.
But still, accompli, not un-accompli. On such slave-killing stones are our pyramids built.
Paul in LA @ 64:
simplistic?
your president was murdered and his killers not only didn't get caught, they're currently driving our nation into the ground, enriching themselves and laughing all the way to the bank.
what don't YOU understand?
ROM Spaceknight @ 65:
I am not ignorant of what you are reporting, and I didn't need the Fucking History Channel to feed it to me with their spin.
These were realpolitik actions by a real master of politics and interpersonal coercion.
They join with the realpolitik actions in favor of civil rights, and those counterbalancing issues are not just moot because it makes your prejudice easier.
Overheard on AirForce One just after LBJ was sworn in..."so Jackie, other than that, how was Dallas?"
ROM Spaceknight @ 67:
So, where are you, if not the U.S.?
alright, i know c&l tends to be a little squeamish with conspiracy, and i certainly don't want to hijack a thread, so i'll leave it at this:
LBJ was a G**damn scumbag with the blood of over 58,000 americans on his hands, he probably was in on JFK's murder and he's probably roasting in hell.
don't take my word, just thoroughly examine the links i posted above.
Paul in LA @ 70:
i meant OUR president, wiseguy. i'm born and bred in illinois, where i currently type these words.
abarts @ 69:
Read 'Death of a President.' It opens with the tale of Jackie arriving back at Air Force One still wearing her husband's blood and brains on her cloth coat, to find LBJ in her quarters, lying on her bed, talking jokingly on her princess phone--with his cowboy boots crossed on her covers, and his arm behind his head.
He was a gigantic piece of work.
Paul in LA @ 68:
yeah, i think lbj probably felt a little guilty. maybe jackie got to him and persuaded him to push through civil rights.
lord knows he backed out of running for reelection. and i'd submit he died a little early, bat-shit crazy from all the skeletons in his closet.
ROM Spaceknight @ 72:
Well, I remember 1964 plain as day. It, along with subsequent events, wrecked my childhood.
I don't need to play along with the slavering wingers and their fake history 'channel' in order to be informed.
Well, if you believe "Racism has not disappeared by magic."
I know a lot of black kids out of the projects that would disagree with your opinion that racism has disappeared.
Has racism changed a lot since I was a kid in the 60s? Yes. But I can go into churches, bars, and schools and see that racism is alive and well.
So what LBJ and King did is great, but all they did is start the US down a road that we are still traveling today. How many blacks are there in the senate? How many US presidents have been black? How many black CEOs of major corporations lilke GE do you see? It wasn't that long ago that black quarterbacks or blacks playing at Augusta was a huge issue.
I think there are civil rights issues that are better. It's not that unusual to watch mixed couples walk down the street these days. I think there are a lot more things we just don't talk about because it's not PC. Like what I saw at FLS. And how we just ignore it and hope it goes away by itself.
Paul in LA @ 55:
ROM Spaceknight @ 74:
No, Jackie was shattered, she did nothing more than ghostwalk her remaining time before leaving for Greece, where she had some recovery.
LBJ had already had a massive coronary in 58. He was overweight, and drank, as well as having regular sex with anything female that moved. His health collapse was slowed by his sheer willpower. Any other human being would have withdrawn from politics a decade before he did.
Paul in LA @ 73:
(
speaking of jfk's blood, i would like to get one last word in for those who don't understand he was hit from the grassy knoll.
if oswald acted alone, and hit him from above and behind, why was jackie scooping his brains off the TRUNK of the car?
BACK, AND TO THE LEFT. very simple physics.
(okay, i'm done -no more conspiracy stuff).