Warning: Disturbing content, not safe for work
Psychologist Philip Zimbardo has seen good people turn evil, and he thinks he knows why.
Zimbardo will speak Thursday afternoon at the TED conference, where he plans to illustrate his points by showing a three-minute video, obtained by Wired.com, that features many previously unseen photographs from the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (disturbing content).
In March 2006, Salon.com published 279 photos and 19 videos from Abu Ghraib, one of the most extensive documentations to date of abuse in the notorious prison. Zimbardo claims, however, that many images in his video — which he obtained while serving as an expert witness for an Abu Ghraib defendant — have never before been published.
The Abu Ghraib prison made international headlines in 2004 when photographs of military personnel abusing Iraqi prisoners were published around the world. Seven soldiers were convicted in courts martial and two, including Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to prison.
Zimbardo conducted a now-famous experiment at Stanford University in 1971, involving students who posed as prisoners and guards. Five days into the experiment, Zimbardo halted the study when the student guards began abusing the prisoners, forcing them to strip naked and simulate sex acts.
His book, The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil, explores how a “perfect storm” of conditions can make ordinary people commit horrendous acts.
Dr. Zimbardo’s interview with Wired and the video may be viewed here. Are these the freedoms–freedom to dehumanize, freedom to debase, freedom to torture and kill–that Muslims supposedly hate us for?
No Trackbacks To “How Good People Turned Evil; New Images From Abu Ghraib“
Despicable! A stain on the soul of America.
Those silly Muslims just don’t understand - It’s OK If You’re A Republican! (IOKIYAR). The only crime the Abu Ghraib defendants committed was taking those pictures - otherwise, we’d just have another Bush League “US Troops would NEVER do that - why do you hate the troops so much as to repeat such vile lies” rather than the “few bad apples” that just coincidentally happened to start using the same tactics as Gitmo interrogators right after the Gitmo commander was sent off to Iraq to head up interrogations…
This is not my country anymore. The second photo of the cherubic perky American girl next door smilingly giving a thumbs up over a corpse is just disgusting.
Funny story, actually. He didn’t immediately halt it when the “guards” became abusive towards the “prisoners”. One afternoon, his wife came to visit him at his laboratory and saw what was transpiring. It was actually her that browbeat him into calling off the experiment.
just a few marines blowing off steam?…
Yeah we definitely need to do some serious deep, soul searching.
That stuff is such fun to do,’ the brothers chime in at the mention of their penchant for blood-letting. ‘Even Javier would come in by the end of the movie, rub his hands together and say, “OK, who am I killing today?”‘ adds Joel. ‘It’s fun to figure out,’ says Ethan. ‘It’s fun working out how to choreograph it, how to shoot it, how to engage audiences watching it.’[
And did you all catch the fun story from the Salt Lake Tribune about the motivational sales company in Provo that waterboarded a guy as part of their team-building exercise?
Torturing for Sales
h/t TPM
Torture is going mainstream.
From the article:
I didn’t know this from the traditional media or white house press conferences. The article goes on to say how these were reservists and faced pressure from others for not being “real military.” (While working 12 hour shifts for forty days in a row!)
This was the Stanford study on steroids. Rumsfeld through these people into Auschwitz. He should be tried.
I mean, Rumsfeld threw these people into Auschwitz.
I’ve seen it myself. Take some 18+ kids and send them far from home, where people from home will never know what they are up to, surround them with people who have no inherent interest in their welfare, put them in situations or environments that present opportunity for consequence free behavior and watch out.
I’m not going to watch it.
If I wanted to see that kind of stuff I’d look on xtube.
It’s depressingly easy to make humans hate other humans. And it’s even more depressingly how easy it is for somebody to play to that impulse. In those two sentences are summed up much bloodshed, horror, and tragedy from the days of our evolution as a species from Homo rhodesiensus to the 21st Century in Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, Asia, and South America, Oceania, and what will sadly be all too likely to start up again in Europe.
Human Beings have been killing each other off since day one. Mostly over food and women.
bob dobbs @ 3:
Understood, but is that really enough to make it “not your country anymore”?
I get sick when I see these photos, but we do no good by thinking this was anything but a small minority of our soldiers.
RHM
The “fallen angels”. It’s been a long fall from grace.
It may be a small minority of soldiers, but at the same time, something is clearly creating a situation in which this is not deemed “bad”. If this person wound up with photos of this, how many are there we’ve never seen? This is seemingly increasingly like a typical day at work for these prisons.
Other than the exception of people with mental illnesses I don’t believe there are any “good” people. We’re just “people”. Our choices and actions make us ‘good’ or ‘bad’ in the eyes of others. Everyone is CAPABLE of what happened at Abu Ghraib. Everyone. And I doubt it would take much to make it seem easy and even acceptable especially when you begin with individuals who have already been broken down and taught to obey, follow orders and kill.
If they want to blame anyone for abu ghraib they need to start at the top first.
Like that’s ever going to happen.
I have never caught the “religious” mental disorder. I have always felt there was just to way way much hypocrisy in the written words and most definitely in peoples actions. But I understand the mentality that produces people who are extreme. I was in the military about 45 years ago. Do you think that they only take 18 year old that are willing to fight, die, and kill? No. Through a process of physical and mental exhaustion the mold and shape Young minds. After boot camp young people are ready to kill, kill, and kill some more. Then you put them in-charge of prisoners. Just what do you expect? The responsibility goes up the chain of command all the way to the White House. A few bad apples my ass! And don’t get on your high horse and tell me that you are better than any of these young people. Given similar circumstances I doubt that more than 1/2 of 1% of you would do anything different. The people in-charge of the people in-charge of the people in-charge are responsible.
Tony @ 16:
Remember that the only reason we even know about this behavior is because a U.S. soldier came forward.
Why would you say it seems like a “typical” day?
RHM
They were ever “good”?
Or just lazy go along get along types?
They were marching with the down-trodden?
Working at soup kitchens?
What?
Good and evil distributes itself on a bell curve,as far as I have seen.
Remember 9/11
MargeAggedon @ 17:
Nope. No way I would succumb to that level of barbarism. I’d face the firing squad before I would stoop to that level.
the point of what he is saying is that any of us, perhaps most of us, himself included [if you read the entire story from Wired] can undergo this kind of transformation in the “right” or special circumstances. read the story, it’s very telling for understanding human behavior.
what he wants is for us all to understand this, and to create understanding of what protects and prevents this behavior in humans. but then that would mean applying it to suicide bombers as well…hmmmm.
it would be the worst kind of tragedy for Abu Grhaib to have happened, and for the rest of us not to learn something from it.
Samo Umer @ 21:
What about it?
I wonder if Rush would still consider these photos evidence of fraternity-like pranks?
I posted a link to the site wired,com the other day. I’m glad C&L picked it up. This is more like the Spanish Inquisition. Disgusting.
Old Billy @ 8:
I don’t buy the “poor reservists” crap for a minute. Remember, many of these MP’s were cops in civilian life. Though the extent of what happened in Abu Graib is possibly more severe, these pieces of s&!# learned much of their technique in the USA. Google “john burge torture”. The only difference between Abu Ghraib and the “widespread and systematic” torture employed by the Chicago Police Department is that Chicago cops didn’t (don’t) take pictures.
L.A. Confidential @ 22:
I believe you may be sincere but everyone is capable… whether or not you’d succumb is something you could only know if you had been through it already.
L.A. Confidential @ 24:
I’ll assume Samo’s suggesting the eye for an eye approach.
Rather then what we should have done which was weed out these terror operations quietly, efficiently, thoroughly, and without bankrupting the country in the process and destroying our reputation for the next 100 years in the eyes of those that used to admire and respect us.
MargeAggedon @ 28:
I wouldn’t. I’d rather die then lie.
L.A. Confidential @ 29:
I think Samo may be reminding us that when we have had a bad day at work it is important to kick the dog when we get home. But I’m still not sure if we should tie the dog up first. Samo? Could you help me out?
US: Vets Break Silence on War Crimes
SAN FRANCISCO, Feb 28 (IPS) - U.S. veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are planning to descend on Washington from Mar. 13-16 to testify about war crimes they committed or personally witnessed in those countries.
“The war in Iraq is not covered to its potential because of how dangerous it is for reporters to cover it,” said Liam Madden, a former Marine and member of the group Iraq Veterans Against the War. “That’s left a lot of misconceptions in the minds of the American public about what the true nature of military occupation looks like.”
Iraq Veterans Against the War argues that well-publicised incidents of U.S. brutality like the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and the massacre of an entire family of Iraqis in the town of Haditha are not the isolated incidents perpetrated by “a few bad apples”, as many politicians and military leaders have claimed. They are part of a pattern, the group says, of “an increasingly bloody occupation”.
who said they were good?
L.A. Confidential @ 32:
This sounds like John Kerry/Winter Soldier stuff.
I’m just curious as to how many of the experts on military subculture (on this board) have actually served? Not because it’s a requirement to criticize (not at all), but because there seems to be a disconnect. Those who have served know the drill, how things work, how orders flow up and down the chain of command. And, most importantly, we know that orders to commit systematic war crimes simply do not exist.
Every sub-culture has a minority that tarnish the image of the others (police, firemen, investment bankers etc.), stop condemning 2 million soldiers for the actions of a small percentage.
RHM
I like how Hannah Arendt in 1963 referred to the “banality of evil.”
Of course bane refers to fatal injury or ruin,
Quck somebody, toss me a banana.
MargeAggedon @ 28:
Bullshit. You’re just trying to explain away your sociopathic urges.
The people in that video are monsters. And It’s people like you that say ‘that’s OK’.
Your thinking is one of the ways that fascism gains power.
34 RHM
Me and most of my buds in the Air Force were high.
Ask the Navy about sub-culture.
RHM @ 34:
I agree. Not every person put into those horrible situations commit horrible acts. Remember it was soldier who came forward with those pictures in the first place. Otherwise no one would have been the wiser. AND that soldier who came forward had his life threatened, his career ended and his family torn apart. He was was destroyed for doing the right thing under hellish conditions. How many of you would have had the balls to do the same? And I disagree that every one is capable of doing this. Speaking from personal experience, some people wind up tearing themselves apart rather than hurting someone else.
MargeAggedon @ 17:
You’re quite right, just look at the experiments of the late Stanley Milgram.
The most unaccountable administration in our history likes to say they’re all for personal accountability in others.
Methinks that’s because they don’t want to admit we’re all both the spider and the fly in a outstretched social web.
Somewhere along the lines without any deliberate attempt we hurt someone or something if only by proxy.
A nice juicy hamburger is good for me but evil for the cow it came from (credit Arch-Druid Isaac Bonewitz for that one.)
People like Hitler and Goebbels had accountants who simply by balancing books and knowing nothink! made the the evils of the superiors possible.
That’s why I always thought William Godwin’s definition of virtue as having a virtuous purpose and a virtuous result was total bovine excreta.
Samo Umer @ 21:
What’s 9/11 got to do with Iraq? NOTHING.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t punish those who cross the line, but we should trace it up and not merely look for fall-guys
I look better in winter colors.
The secret of life is it is constantly devouring itself, like an ouroboros,
Or a very flexible onanist.
Samo Umer @ 21:
I prefer to remember 7-11
That’s where I get my Slurpees.
(On 9-11 we were attacked primarily by Saudis [our allies], not Iraqis.)
Zimbardo did an interview with Terrri Gros on Fresh Air last May:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=9940824
ysbaddaden@42 Don’t forget that there’s still a large percentage of folks that still think that Saddam practically flew the planes himself. It’s a shame that nobody really ever made a big stink and the few that did got labeled as lefty loons.
RHM @ 34:
RHM, I’ll chime in as one of those military personnel that understands exactly what you’re talking about. Soldiers have the same trouble as police officers. There are always going to be a small percentage of cops that want to be bullies with a badge and there are always going to be a small percentage of soldiers that think they can torture, kill, etc. A lot of soldiers haven’t even touched a weapon on the job outside of basic.
I agree with RHM that people need to think for a moment before trashing the military in general for the actions of a few. Interrogators are their own odd little subculture and they’re generally not exactly everyone’s favorite people to be around. And as far as the prison guards being sadistic, as it’s been said before there are a lot of factors that are unrelated to military service. See the Stanford Experiment for an example.