'Florida doesn't want to vote again. So we won't'
By Steve Benen Monday Mar 17, 2008 7:20pmIf Florida’s delegates to the Democratic National Convention aren’t seated, about 1.7 million voters who participated in the state’s primary will, in a way, be disenfranchised. If Florida’s delegates are seated, millions of Democrats who would have voted but didn’t because they’d been told in advance that their vote wouldn’t count, would also effectively be disenfranchised. (As the estimable Carl Hiaasen put it, “It’s like Major League Baseball waiting until midseason and then declaring that spring training games will count in the final standings.”) Either way, Democratic voters in one of the nation’s biggest states would be screwed.
Florida Dems could have another primary, but there are some major legal and financial restrictions. They could try some re-vote-by-mail process, but no one is confident in the integrity of the system. Everyone has been trying to think of something, but to no avail.
So, yesterday, Floridians gave up.
Setting the stage for a contentious fight well into the summer, Florida Democrats gave up Monday on redoing their Jan. 29 presidential primary, leaving it to the national party or rivals Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to hammer out a solution to make the state’s delegates count.
Florida Democrats, who had already closed the door on holding a full-scale conventional election or a caucus, scrapped the controversial vote-by-mail primary they had proposed less than a week ago as their best option, saying it just isn’t possible.
“While your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn’t want to vote again. So we won’t,” Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said late Monday in a letter to Florida Democrats.
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) is still pushing a proposal to have the DNC simply cut the state’s delegate totals in half (instead of eliminating them altogether), but the Clinton campaign is reportedly opposed to the idea.
Obama supporters are offering an alternative, but it also seems a little too controversial.
[Allan Katz, of Tallahassee, who supports Obama] is recommending that the [Democratic National Committee’s rules and bylaws committee] give Florida its delegates back — but award half to Clinton and half to Obama. Florida activists would be allowed to participate in the convention, but the ground rules for the primaries wouldn’t be changed after the fact.
“Fifty-fifty is the way to do it, and I don’t think there’s any other fair conclusion,” Katz said. “Everyone agreed — Hillary Clinton agreed, Barack Obama agreed — that we weren’t selecting delegates in the Jan. 29 election, so how can we do that now?”
That has some advantages — Florida’s delegates would at least be seated and recognized — but there’s no way on Earth that the Clinton campaign would approve of a solution that erased her margin from the primary that wasn’t supposed to count.
And what about Michigan?
Michigan Democratic party leaders on Monday proposed legislation to conduct a new primary on June 3 to allocate the state’s 156 delegates. The election would be run by the state but be privately financed.
Mrs. Clinton, of New York, has agreed to the plan; aides to Mr. Obama, of Illinois, have refused to commit to it. It is more uncertain than ever that he will: The party’s rules may disqualify anyone who voted in Michigan’s Republican primary from voting in the Democratic primary — including those who may be Obama supporters who voted Republican because his name was not on the Democratic ballot.
Michigan Democratic officials said the plan for a revote could not move forward unless both campaigns agreed to the proposal in the next day or so.
The Michigan Legislature then must approve any plan to conduct a statewide election, and state lawmakers are scheduled to begin a two-week recess on Thursday. Even if the Obama and Clinton campaigns endorse the proposal, it still must win two-thirds support in both the State House, controlled by Democrats, and the Senate, which has a Republican majority. The plan is also dependent on state party officials raising an estimated $10 million to pay for the new election.
I’d just add that top Clinton strategist Harold Ickes blasted the Obama campaign for its hesitation to support the Michigan re-vote, insisting that the “right to vote is the foundation of our democracy,” and Michigan voters “deserve to have a voice and a vote in the Democratic Party’s nominating process.”
Ickes, of course, is one of the DNC members who decided to strip Michigan of its delegates in the first place.
Get the sense that the campaigns, while touting principles, are really looking at this from purely self-serving interests? I do.
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Testing 123 Testing
Things are getting very weird very fast.
Oh Harold Ickes, how I loathe thee.
What's the Obama alternative? Just give him all the delegates.
Bet if obama would get the votes the male bloggers would be messing their pants.
This is bad news for either Democratic candidate.
Votes that went to Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson, Dodd and Gravel would be awarded to Obama, that is what Obama supporters want?
Guess what, THAT IS VOTE STEALING!!
Hillary won the majority of the felegates, let her get them. I voted in Hillsborough County despite being told my vote won't count. Whoever didn't get to vote is a loser. Plain and simple. 1.6 million Democrats voted and that is that.
There were rules, the Republicans in your state broke them.
You have four options:
1. Vote against all Republicans in all coming elections in mass for screwing you.
2. Be seated 50/50 between both candidates.
3. Wait until it's all over and get seated as a whole behind the nominee.
4. A combo of 1 and 2 or 3.
The same goes for your Michigan.
Oh yeah....
5. The next time either party in your state breaks the rules that risk not getting your votes counted, complaing WHEN IT HAPPENS and not a year and a half later when you find yourself on the sideline to history.
2 million floridians voted. How many more can there be down there who didn't vote versus the average turnout for such a primary. Seems like everyone who wanted to vote came out to vote as there were also other items on the ballot. Anyway, you slice it, negating Florida helps Sen. Obama. The Super-delegates will have to take into account that Clinton got 50% of the vote down there and Obama 33%. They will have to sift these facts into their equation which is part of the reason they call them Super delegates I guess.
Mister Anderson @ 8:
Howard Dean said that FL has to go to the Creditials Committee at the convention to fight their delegates. So no to any of your suggestion.
The 50/50 split is VOTE STEALING.
If the people who didn't vote in January in Florida would be disenfranchised by using the existing Florida results that must also mean that the people who, because of work or other obligations, couldn't participate in causcuses are also disenfranchised. Lets throw out the caucus results too.
Marge @ 5:
Maybe that's because of all the viagra they been poppin!
Have a contest. IF Michigan can build a decent car, they get a day set aside to revote. Florida? If you level Disneyland, you get to revote.
Frankly, with the whole 'if our votes don't get counted, I won't support the Democratic Nominee when it comes time to vote for our new President' (saw this on news.google.com) really seems childish to me - and I voted in Leon County. I don't take stock in polls, and frankly I only see this as something I can hold against the Republican party, we were forced to vote ahead by Charlie Crist, and the DNC punished our State. If we want to follow the rules set by the DNC, then our votes shouldn't count, neither should Michigan's - but if they want to sit the delegates, fine sit them fifty fifty. I'm still going to vote for the Democratic Nominee when it comes time to vote for who will be leading this country after the Bush Administration.
A 50/50 delegate split does not give the Democrats in Michigan and Florida a say in the candidate selection. This is an unmitigated disaster.
I sympathize with the Floridians who voted and with those who believed rules are rules and didn't vote. I'm also aware that Republicans were at least involved in the mischief that moved the primary date.
That said, if the DNC caves to blackmail and seats the delegates, I'll guarantee the primaries for 2012 will begin on Jan 30, 2009.
this is a horrible mess (file under:duh)
i see this as a dean-failure, with the rank and file dems in FL and MI paying the price.
there is no good solution: that said, the possibility of this occurring and ways to resolve this issue should have been hammered out before the primaries even started, not now.
instead, after the country has seen the monster that is the rethug party (illegal wars, illegal spying, torture, economic meltdown, katrina, enron, etc), the obama/clinton campaigns are struggling to be ahead in head-to-head match-ups with mccain.
i never would have guessed that in 2008, after all that has happened, that people would even consider a bush-legacy-candidate as their prez choice. if the dems lose the election it is their own fault, and they deserve to be disbanded and put out to pasture, as it would no longer be a viable party.
SM @ 11:
I didn't say split the vote. I said split the delegates that way neither candidate is given a unfair advantage and Florida still gets represented.
You can't have it all ways. You want to be seated, but you want your vote to effect the race, but you don't want to pay for a new election.
Getting Florida and Michigan is easy as they can get seats after one candidate drops out of the race. Florida, Michigan and Hillary are being greedy by they want the popular vote to count too since Hillary's only chance moving forward is to win the popular vote.
Tough luck! You've known for a year and a half that your popular vote wouldn't count and everyone except for Senator Ben Nelson accepted it. You accepted it then, so accept it now.
If Hillary had of wiped out Obama on Super Tuesday like she orignally planned to do, then whatever happens to Michigan and Florida wouldn't even make it on CNN Headline News, let alone turn into this national story where everyone is suppose to emphaize with "disenfrancised voters".
Everyone was told what the rules of the game were before hand. Why are they all getting bent out of shape after the game is over? Forget MI and Fla. Neither of them would change a thing even if they had a revote. Why are we wasting energy on this? We have Republikinz to beat.
As usual, dems are their own worst enemy. The most destructive dems = Clintons, should be retired, foevah.
Alvord @ 12:
I don't think Florida had a caucus on Jan. 29. And I seriously call BS on the "people who did't vote thought their vote didn't count so they did not go." I went, as 1.6 million Democrats went, despite whether our vote "counted" or not. Screw the people who didn't get off their behinds to go. I rearranged my work schedule weeks ahead to vote on Jan 29. If people didn't vote, that's their problem.
It will really piss me off if I don't get to have a say in this. I contribute a lot of money to bloggers and the Democratic party.
We ought to give Florida to Cuba after the shit they pulled in 2000 and 2004 there, but seeing as that's not a viable option then the voters of that state must be heard. I think it should fall on the part of the DNC and the two leading candidates to finance some sort of mail-in ballot campaign, and stat.
Between Florida and the DNC, these guys could fuck up a bowl of Jello.
What hope do we have in the next few years when the Republicans manage to get their shit at least partially together?
CappuccettoRosso @ 21:
How come it's always the Clintons fault?
All of this is Ralph Nader's fault, btw. I don't know how, but I'm sure it is.
Mister Anderson @ 19:
Regular delegates have to vote according to the popular vote, so seating 50/50 is VOTE STEALING.
Marge @ 5:
Ummm , it was the FEMALE vote in 2004 that turned the tide for Chimpy ; well that , and Diebold .........Way to go.
Disenfranchisement? Welcome to the New American Century!!
Here's a solution -- just Re-do Florida ... for 2000!
Do supposed Democratic Party supporters think it is worth it to destroy the party and candidates for a one term presidency? THAT is the question you have to ask. It took almost 8 years to make this mess, it sure won't be corrected in 4 and an electorate with a short memory and slight attention span will punish the Dems in 2012. It's far too great a mess to be solved in one term.
I'm in NC, and I give up, too. I'm voting for Mike Gravel. He's the only one who doesn't have rocks in his head.
L.A. Confidential @ 26:
It's not the "Clintons" , per se ; it's the Clenis , rearing its ugly head , so to speak .........
Clinton won by the margin she did in Florida simply because of name recognition and her front-runner status at the time. Remember how early it was at the time. If the vote had occurred as scheduled, the results likely would have been much closer....still a win for Clinton, but much closer.
I say to my fellow Democrats: "Split the delegates and then go out and have a beer together." Don't tear the party apart. In Florida the Republican fix is already in for November anyway, especially if Hillary is the nominee. With Obama...it's a toss up.
MCMetal @ 34:
Right. While the Cons get a free pass for all their child molesting and what have you.
Mister Anderson @ 19:
Disenfranchised voters in quotes? You should change your name, you sound more like one of the Agents of the matrix.
SM @ 28:
Then Florida and Michigan should pay for a new vote. It's that simple.
If you don't want to pay for two elections, then you shouldn't have broke the rules in the first place. If the rules were broken by the Republicans in your state, then hold them accountable instead of trying to hold the DNC or Obama campaign responsible.
They've known for a YEAR AND A HALF that this would happen and you still allowed it to happen. The only reason it's a huge issue now is because their votes would actually matter this time. Labeling themselves "disenfranchised voters" is not going to fly with me just like the real "disenfranchised voters" in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 didn't matter to the rest of the nation.
If you want to argue and debate the electoral system then fine. But don't wait until you are negatively impacted before it's a huge issue.
Rico @ 35:
Does the Florida vote really need to be "fixed" in the GOP's favor in Florida ? (Well , this time , anyway)
I mean , outside of the Hispanic population there , isn't the rest of the damn state the entire US population's retirement area ?
And aren't they more likely to vote for a dithering old fart like themself in McSenile , anyway ?
OT: Watching Countdown. The audio "conveniently" cut out during the worst person in the world segment right after St. McCain said "As we all know, Al Qaeda are going into Iran to be trained and coming back to Iraq." No audio for the rest of the segment and didn't come back until midway through the first or second commercial.
I'm in Nashville, TN. Anyone else have this "problem?"
Democratic Party voters getting screwed here in Floriduh? Jesus what news! Damn this IS a slow news day. RePugs lying about Iraq,Dems screwed in Floriduh.What's next? NEWS falsh-'Today the sun rose in The East film at 11'.
who fuckin cares, flo ri dumb fucked up 2000
And MY comment didn't take up HALF A PAGE.
I'm experiencing obama fatigue. Enough of this man and his speeches already.
Mister Anderson @ 38:
The Florida DNC had no control over it. We were scheduled for March 11. A few months prior, the Republican Dominated state congress forced the primary for January 29. Amendment 1 was also on the ballot, which drove the decision to hold the primaries early. It was a Republican move, not because FL wanted to influence the election cycle.
And yes, we are disenfranchised because the 4th most populous state in the nation will have no voice or vote at the Democratic Convention over some Howard Dean crap.
nonbeliever @ 37:
I put it in quotes because they're not genuinely disenfranchised. They're irresponsible citizens who failed to hold their respective state governments accountable for breaking the rules AFTER they knew the consequences and now they expect the rest of the country to give a damn and flip the bill on their behalf.
If they weren't Florida and Michigan, but Idaho and Wyoming, no one would give care. Being that the only argument they have is that they are a big state, and since we are all reminded by how "some states are more equal than others", I can care less if Florida and Michigan have their votes counted and are seated. There was no fraud. No one lied. There's no conspiracy. They knowingly allowed their respective state governments to act negligently on their behalf and now they want a second chance where anyone but them pick up the bill.
I'm sorry. But coming from a smaller state, I'm sick of being bombarded by "breaking news" coverage every time a cat gets stuck in a tree in New York. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how big states count more than little states. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how Florida and Michigan voters will be "disenfranchised" when voters actually were disenfrachised in those states in 2000 and 2004 and no one did a thing.
If you they have a issue, they need to take it up with their state elected officials. If they're looking for sympathy from me, they won't get it.
Anyone with a brain knows what happened. Party before country.
F#@% Florida!
If they want to act like children then we don't need them. Ohio and Pennsylvania went overwhelmingly Democratic in 2006, it will most likely go the same way in 2008. If that is the case, and we win the usual northeast, upper midwest, and west coast states, then we won't need Florida. Iowa, New Mexico, and Colorado have also been moving more Democratic in the last few years, so if we win them then Florida becomes irrelevent.
I'm tired of the Democratic party wasting their time in that state full of @ssholes that never had, nor ever will have the intention of voting Democrat.
MCMetal @ 39:
Despite the stereotype of old farts and Cubans, Florida is one of the "mirror" states that reflects the US demographics statistics, almost to a tee.
Mister Anderson- get over it,man. In the generalelection,smaller states have a bigger impact because of the electoral college. So take a blow.
Given floridas voting record,, (think kathy harris aka mack truck meets mirror) who can blame them?
oh BOYCOT china!
After all what other nation sells poison to pet owners, lies about sars and bird flu and beats up tibeten monks and calls it a normal way of living.
SM @ 45:
Exactly my point. I should care because you're the fourth largest state? Would you care if you had of followed the rules and had your vote counted but Nebraska broke them and was in your situation? I'm guessing you wouldn't care which is why I don't care.
I stated many times that the RNC screwed you, which is why your beef is with the RNC. Not with the DNC. Not with the Obama campaign. And not with me. How many Florida and Michigan residents were up in arms over a year ago when all of this went down? How many of you was marching with Ben Nelson in Tallahassee when he was trying to fight against it?
There are consequences to all actions and inactions. This is one of them my friend.
If Florida voters want to vote then Florida voters should pay for it. It's that simple. If it was the RNC's fault, then make the RNC pay for it. If the residents of Florida can't control their elected officials, then that's no one's fault but your own.
nm @ 44:
After 7 years of the unintelligible and galactic stupidity , I'm more than willing to listen to long-winded speeches that are spoken by an articulate person............
Mister Anderson @ 52:
Sheesh What a blowhard.
SM @ 49:
Really ?
What other state has ever had a problem with punching a voter card correctly ??????????
David Hawes @ 50:
I don't have a issue with not being heard because my state followed the rules and my vote was counted. Tell Michigan and Florida to get over it since they want their votes counted but they won't hold those people accountable who got them in this situation in the first place. Now they want the DNC and the candidates to pay for it? I contribute money to the money campaign and I will contribute money to the DNC in the Fall. And I don't want a PENNY going to Michigan and Florida re-votes.
MCMetal @ 55:
Hahahahaha......zing!
SM @ 45:
Then stop voting for Republicans in the state legislature!
Get control of your own stupid state before you try to push your bogus delegate results on the rest of us.
SM @ 11:
Only in the way that drinking the imaginary tea at a child's tea-party is TEA STEALING.
Florida agreed to the same rules that the other 49 states agreed to. Then Florida turned around and said "We are determined to fuck up every national election," and broke the rules knowing full well that they had agreed to give up their delegates if they jumped ahead of early voting states. Then when Hillary Clinton won the fake election, she started demanding that the rules be thrown out to pack extra delegates into her column.
Seating Florida's disqualified delegates is rat-fucking.
Democratic leaders in Detroit told people to vote for Huckabee to mess with the Republican side.
This was predicated on the clearly stated understanding that the Democratic side was meaningless.
Republicans rarely show their faces in Detroit and many of the environs.
How many Democrats voted for Republicans, I don't know but I'm sure it happened. They will not be allowed to vote in a redo since we were handed Rs or Ds (I took a D, thank you) and it was tracked.
I don't see a redo working in Michigan, even if someone found the money to pay for it.
First it was the recapitulation of the Florida Democrats that initially shifted the date of their Primaries - despite the wishes of the DNC's dictates (of which, might I add, they were signatories). And now, in their re-recapitulation, they want to have their all of their votes count, despite their self-serving, petulant disregard for the rules and by-laws that they established.
I've heard the argument that, were their vote to be discounted, Floridians may choose not to vote Democrat in the National Election. But history has shown that, even when Florida's populace chooses to vote Democrat, they consistently screw up the ballot - and end up voting for Republicans anyway...
SM @ 45:
What about that detail of a democratic co-sponsor on the original bill.....
i think its a bit more complicated than saying the repug thugs did it....
if FL and MI want a vote, they should pay for one, and have a do over.... not even Soros wants to pay for their f-up, and 15 million to him would be like 20 bucks from me....
Mister Anderson @ 56:
What the hell kind of crap is this ?
Both Michigan and Florida were told their votes WOULD NOT COUNT , nor would their delegates be seated , if they didn't follow the rules.
Funny how those in both states cry about Chimpy administration lawbreaking , yet want the rules set down for them changed when the result is inconvenient or unwanted by them .......
SM @ 7:
I voted in Pinellas for Obama, despite being told that my vote wouldn't count. That's not the point, though. I realize that the state Republicans attached the change in the primary date to a comprehensive election reform bill mandating paper trails for voting machines, etc. Unfortunately, at the time the measure passed with Democratic support, I remember Karen Hughes and the Democratic delegation drinking the Kool Aid and singing the refrain of how this was going to make Florida more influential in national politics. They played chicken with the national committee and lost.
If Democrats had stood up at the time and said that, we realize that this may cost us delegates at the national convention, but this is a poison pill attached to a necessary reform package that we need to prevent further tainted elections and debacles like 2000, I would be much more sympathetic to attempts to seat delegates now. As it is, it just looks to be more gaming of the system.
Mister Anderson @ 56:
Ummmm As most know here,I live in Floriduh. And last time I looked,My vote counted ONCE. So,perhaps You should go have a scotch or something and calm yourself. I myself DO hold accountable those in Tallahasee. But,alas, I'm one voice in the Wilderness.
tek @ 4, here's an idea - Try Reading The Post! before you comment!
MCMetal @ 63:
Get your facts right fuckface. Then open yer yap.
#64 Alton meant Karen Thurman R-FL
Fix the broken system and this won't happen.
Once again I ask, why all the handwringing and sobbing over Florida and Michigan when other states have been just has effectively disenfranchised for decades?
Mister Anderson @ 46:
I'm sorry. But coming from a smaller state, I'm sick of being bombarded by "breaking news" coverage every time a cat gets stuck in a tree in New York. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how big states count more than little states. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how Florida and Michigan voters will be "disenfranchised" when voters actually were disenfrachised in those states in 2000 and 2004 and no one did a thing.
If you they have a issue, they need to take it up with their state elected officials. If they're looking for sympathy from me, they won't get it.
Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm from New York City and I'm sorry if you feel left out of the 24 hour news cycle but the kitty in the tree scenario is reaching. I personally don't believe that big states count more than little states, I just want ALL votes counted.
David Hawes @ 67:
What "facts" am I missing , shitstain ?
Because you live in Florida , you believe you're the only one that knows what the hell's going on ?
Hey fucko
You and the rest of the retarded rube assholes that couldn't fill out a voter card properly are responsible for originally foisting the horseshit Chimpy administration on us ; learn