Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
By John Amato Wednesday Mar 26, 2008 12:00pmThis is so sad. I'm all for freedom of religion, but this didn't have to happen.
An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday. Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness. The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
I hope this sends shock waves around the world to this type of community so it never happens again. I grieve for that little girl. Can you imagine the pain and suffering she was subjected to for thirty straight days?
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Easily treatable.
[Deleted. Trolling. And you're banned, too. Site Monitor]
Careful John... tread that road between real morality and going after Christians lightly. They control the government, and can go after atheists much more easily (I'm an atheist)
But yes, it is a DAMN shame.
They need to be arrested and charged. Manslaughter at the least.
the perfect argument for ending religion and the plague it has been for all mankind since the first whores started taking money for more than just sex.
religious freedom? John, there is no such thing. The statement identifies their mutual exclusivity.
Burn their steaks!
Tartare.
this will have absolutely no impact on the mouthbreathers, er, god-fearing true-blue 'murcans...
note the family is getting thru this child's utterly avoidable death by praying to their god -- who they fail to grasp has already ignored their prayers.
Parents should be brought up for charges. Stupid shits.
These parents are the sick ones. They have no right to throw away their childs life on based on their idiotic interpretation of "religion". If they wanted to allow themselves to rot away while praying, thats their choice, but that girl deserved a chance to live.
They should get child neglect and possibly a charge of criminal neglegance leading to death.
BIG QUESTION:
Can secular morality override the first amendments right for individuals to worship as they please? I think the resounding answer will be yes, but consider its ramifications. When Church and State are separate, secularism and non-believers win. How would you feel if you had the majority of voters on your side and lost the ideological battle with your own government?
[Deleted. Trolling. And you're banned, too. Site Monitor]
Freedom of religion doesn't include the right to abuse, neglect or molest children- but they do seem to go together.
Welcome to the right-wing world where only Jaysus can save you! You can pass judgement on perfect strangers, breed children to become Christian Soldiers, then wait for the rapture. All are welcome!(except Jews, Catholics, gays, lesbians, progressives, etc...)
FOX was running this story yesterday. Sheppard Smith framed the story pretty much as Good God-fearing people lose their child. It was bullshit. This is criminal neglect - no different than if the parents had sat around getting stoned while watching tv. The way I see it, if you're an adult and you want to ignore serious illness and bet your life on the graces of the Invisible White Dude In The Sky, that's your business. Children cannot make that choice for themselves, and parents have an obligation to provide aid and comfort to their children. These freaks should be having their next bible study session in the Joint.
This happens to often in our country. Ignorant people do not deserve to have children entrusted to them. This type of behavior deserves harsh punishment.
The sad thing is that idiots like these two fairy-tale believers likely did not learn from their crime. I can just hear them saying "Well, it was god's will that she died.....".
If you leave a child in a hot car and the child dies, that's a crime. Why isn't this?
cray86:
This type of case goes beyond first amendment rights, in my opinion. It is analogous to a cult that sacrifices dogs and is charged with animal cruelty. They have their freedom of religion, but not when it crosses into the illegal. I think allowing their child to suffer and eventaully die from a treatable disease falls within the definition of child neglect, regardless of the reason why they did it.
To think of it another way, if the same thing happened, but the reason why she was not taken to a doctor was because the parents were high on meth, would that be considered child neglect? I think we all would agree that it would.
Poor child.
Keep in mind that these parents of hers fit into that huge voting block of religious zealouts.
Perfect Liberal @ 11:
You're not fooling anyone, troll. Bugger off.
Child abuse. Pure and simple. Criminal charges must be brought against the parents.
Perfect Liberal @ 11:
No, UP YOURS!
they should have been praying for insulin, because that is the tiny, easy to acquire, chemical that their daughter really needed. then her very high sugar concentrations could have found their way into tissues that needed them...these are things i know because of science.
why didn't god tell us about insulin? or anti-biotics? or clean drinking water? then the bible would be SUPER helpful.
I actually watched the roommate of a friend once take a huge prescription bottle out of her purse, open it up, and dump the contents in the trash can. She saw me starting at her from the couch and said "I have cysts on my ovaries and I had a weak moment when I got this prescription filled, but now I believe that god will heal me."
Um....
I don't even know how to respond to that kind of behavior, but at least she was only responsible for her own health and not that of a child.
100 years ago people had the same god and the same prayers and life expectancy was only 47 years... what they didn't have was modern medical technology. You would think that would clue these people in.
The Chinese have it right. Make religion a capital crime.
It's a tragic story, but not one that symbolizes an epidemic about which something must be done, i.e. "Child A was killed because someone did B. We need to crack down on B by doing X, Y, and Z."
Obviously, the problem is that the child lacked enough faith to become healed. Hopefully, this couple has a lot of other children with whom God can test their faith.
(Sarcasm and intense anger)
. . . and then she died.
*
If these people practiced any other religion other than christianity they would be arrested. And the right wingnuts would be screaming for the death penalty.
very sad indeed... people that take religion that far have some serious mental issues... i was waiting for the snake handlers to come out in the story.....
she will be resurrected no doubt.
Sorry, John, but there's nothing to see here.
- Charles Darwin
Religion and belief in an invisible Gawd is the biggest killer on the globe. If something bad happens, it's cuz Gawd willed it. If something good happens, it's cuz Gawd answers prayers. It is unbelievable that in this day and age, peope fall for this crap. It is without a doubt the biggest scam known to man. These same "believers" often ridicule others who happen to believe their is some form of life out there in the universe somewhere. Unreal.
Earth is a hell hole of delusion.
[Deleted. Trolling. And you're banned, too. Site Monitor]
So they eschewed medical help relying instead on prayer, and they think she died because they didn't have enough faith? Guess logical thinking isn't their strong point.
For all us libbers out here, kinda tests your 'pro-choice' resolve, eh?
Sylvarose @ 347:
Wow, if there were a few more christians like you, there would be enough to fill up a small church.
Yes it does. IF you mean what you say - a big if, because I've personally never known a christian like that - that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of christians in this country are Bush-lovers.
So much hate for a couple of morons.
Yet among you atheists the only one that finds jokes about murdering Christians offensive is Karen.
The next step for the rest of you will be to burn books.
GBWY Karen.
General_Rennenkampf @ 353:
The atrocities you cite were not carried out in the name of atheism, but in the name of totalitarianism. Nice try, though.
CD @ 361:
You are a brilliant mind-reader. Is that one of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 362:
Yeah right hate of religion was part of Marx's creed ask anyone who lived in Poland during the cold war.
CD @ 364:
Not hate of it; recognition of it for what it is.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 363:
It doesn't take a mind reader to spot fascists.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 365:
Oh yeah marx just looooooooooooooooooooved religion.
CD @ 367:
No; he recognized it for what it is.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 368:
Which is why in Russia criticism of atheism was strictly forbidden could lead to imprisonment.
CD @ 369:
Yes, much as heresy against Catholic doctrine led to the thumbscrew and the stake during much of European history.
The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshippers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 370:
Nice try but two wrong don't make a right and I never claimed the Catholic church was perfect, you however claimed the Christians had never been Persecuted and then claimed that they had never been persecuted in Russia.
CD @ 371:
Thanks for the little history lesson. I have found that the thinner-skinned theists are experts on certain areas of totalitarianism (although curiously ignorant of Hitler's Christianity). I always know who I can turn to for juicy details of the horrors of Soviet Russia.
Gotta say, though, being "harassed" and having to wash off some graffiti still sounds better than being broken on the rack and burnt at the stake in the name of Jesus, or beheaded in the name of Mohammed. That's just me though. YMMV.
CD @ 366:
Just so you know, Fascists burn books. Liberal tend to read them.
I can see that you might need an explanation of what the word 'Fascism' means.
Webster's Definition:
1) often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2) a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J.
The Right-wing agenda fits this definition, exactly.
Definition of liberal:
Broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms:
Favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism
B) capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of, or, constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives.
Marked by generosity : openhanded b: given or provided in a generous and openhanded way.
99Lufballons @ 331:
You sound like a taunting child. Your yelling with CAPS gives the impression of an atheist zealot jumping and howling at the moon, just like all of us spiritual types right? The level of dialogue on the comment boards is like scrawling graffiti in the bathroom. Just because you're hidden behind a screen name do you not feel the need to represent yourself in a coherent, intelligent manner. "Atheism never kept someone from RATIONALE healthcare"... um, you need to read more. History is filled with leaders, societies, regimes that have outlawed religion and left their people in squalor. I'm sure you'd be last a long time in Nicaragua in the early '80's or in parts of Russia during the cold war, or in Chile when the US implemented socialist regimes there. You my friend, should spend more time reading and less time berating all people of faith for one article that has no bearing on hundreds of millions of people.
And in my earlier post I meant to say that there are far more "progressives" that believe in spirituality than those that dismiss it outright... or call for all spiritual people to be eaten by lions like the champs on this board. The crying out of hate comes from all segments and those that are crying for the blood of christians are the spiritual brothers and sisters of the religious right... intolerant fools.
SylvaRose:
Hey…I’m a Christian…and I NEVER voted for George Bush. I’m one of those Christians that believe in traditional Christian values…you know like “aid the poor…heal the sick…love thy neighbor.”
I believe Christian values are PROGRESSIVE values…but I also believe my Christian beliefs don’t have a place in politics short of shaping my PERSONAL morality which helps me determine who I find a good candidate whether or NOT they share my faith. I want my candidate to share my politics.
So I’m looking for a candidate that will bring an end to this war (something I was ALWAYS against)…help stop Global Warming (Yes…Science is real and it does not threaten my faith)…help the economy…bring about some sort of universal healthcare …and stop the division in this country by dividing us along gender, racial, religious and even sexual orientation. I won’t find that candidate in the Republican party.
Christian does NOT equal conservative…neocon.
Christian does NOT equal Christian “Right”
SR, I am a Christian...probably not a very good one, even worse, a Catholic.
I agree with every word above. I don't vote Republican, am against discrimination, global-warming, screwing the poor, for all things progressive.
I am always amazed when folks make such sweeping generalizations as I read here today. Kind of reminds me of how the press is tar and feathering Obama over Reverend Wright.
There are probably as many religions in the world as there are believers. No two people, even folks sitting next to each other in the same church, believe the same thing. If you sat in my church, you would think abortion, not war and indifference, was the worst sin of all. You might think that women are second-class citizens and that married people shouldn't be allowed to be ministers of the faith. A lot of us still come, but we think much that we hear is at best debatable, at worst wrong.
And a lot of us aren't sure what we believe, so we just hope. That does not make all religion bad or all believers jerks.
I've got to say, though, I see a lot of "internet bravery" here.....folks spouting a lot of angry things they don't say at the Thanksgiving family gathering or to friends who practice a religion. None of it will bring this little girl back, and most of you know this is a tragic, isolated incident based on superstition and stupidity.
Numinous @ 374:
I can see that you don't give a shit that people here think murder is funny.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 373:
Oh but I know about the horrors of Nazi Germany, and of the inquisition, of the trail of tears and the bataan death march, The Killing Fields, and nanking.
I know more about death and destruction that any human should.
You know very little.
Start your education here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
CD @ 372:
Actually no, I never claimed those things. You seem to have confused me with someone else.
CD @ 378:
Thanks for proving my point.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 380:
You claimed I was ignorant of what Hitler had done.
I proved you wrong.
Nice try.
BTW Mao killed 80 million of his own people.
CD @ 381:
I claimed that thin-skinned theists are often ignorant of the fact that Hitler was a Christian. I never claimed you were ignorant of what Hitler did. Even schoolchildren are aware of that.
The Wikipedia article you linked is of very low quality, even for Wikipedia. (I see it is also the source of most of your, uh, facts.) Citations are few, and many assertions carry the dread "Citation Needed." I also note that I could easily cherry-pick quotes from it that undermine your argument (E.g., "The Soviets' official religious stance was one of 'religious freedom or tolerance'"), but IMO when someone resorts to cherry-picking a poor-quality Wikipedia article than that person has already lost.
CD @ 382:
To the everlasting pleasure of theists, who can now point with glee and say "he did it too!"
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 383:
Bullshit you were aiming your remark about thin-skinned theists at me.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 384:
Oh yeah it fills me with glee that he killed millions.
I'm not the one who find murder funny.
You have yet to object to jokes about killing Christians.
There was a case a few years ago when one of the Oregon City gang of faith healers was tried for neglect for failing to get treatment for a daughter dying of diabetes. It looked pretty bad when he showed up in court wearing glasses.
CD @ 386:
Why do you say "jokes about killing Christians" instead of "jokes about killing people"?
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 388:
Why doesn't it bother you that they were talking about either?
CD @ 389:
I asked you first.
CD @ 377:
I have no idea why you would direct that comment at me.
I don't think murder is funny at all. It's not something to joke about.
A good question to ask though, how easy to get is insulin? Maybe the real problem was that they didn't have access to health care, and turned to the only affordable solution? People do this the world over when medicine becomes accessible only to the affluent minority.
Rusty Hussein-Legged Mack Daddy Shackleford @ 362:
The atrocities you cited were not carried out in the name of Christ, but in the name of the Pope. Atheism was the state Soviet/Chinese/Khmer Rouge ideology, just as Catholicism was. However, Soviet Russia had atheism as its state ideology, and did in decades what Christians took millenia to accomplish, even including Hitler.
Yes, Hitler was Catholic. Whoop de fsucking do. He killed 11 million. Just in Stalin's time alone the Soviets killed 20 million. Don't paint Christians in the blood that is ours indeed and pretend atheism-as-ideology is somehow immune.
It demeans the argument from both sides.
canhasquestion @ 392:
If people feel they have to resort to prayer because they can't afford the medicine needed to keep their child alive, then something is very, very, wrong.
This is not the third world. And I would think that even most third world countries would use medicine if it was available. If this sort of thing happened in any other first world country, you would expect someone to be arrested for a long, long, time.
Why does America have a law that allows this sort of thing to happen? Who passed it?
That would be something of interest to everyone here. What sort of human being (or should I say 'monster'?) thinks such a thing is acceptable?
General_Rennenkampf @ 393:
Here's a great idea.
Let's just say that any group that has an authoritarian, fascist, agenda is bad.
Anything that promotes fear, hate, ignorance, bigotry, the stripping of human rights, sexism, murder, torture and so on...
... should be deemed unacceptable.
Unfortunately, this will include most religions. Not because I say so... but because most religions actually do support such horrible behavior.
Now don't get me wrong. There is some good done in religion's name.
There are people who will love their fellow man, and try to behave in what their religions define as a socially acceptable manner.
However, it often seems that there's a spiritual carrot being dangled in front of said worshiper's faces. The promise of a heaven, or a fear of a hell.
'God' forbid that person momentarily forgets about their spiritual reward/punishment.
After all, we know that all human beings must be bribed, or threatened, in order to behave ****(by the way, I'm being insanely sarcastic. A sensible person would have at least some human empathy.)****.
Understand... I don't think all religious people are like this... but I think it's very dangerous to think of any religious belief as more important than human beings or learning.
A lot of terrible events in human history could have been avoided if more people wondered whether or not they were doing something right, instead of appeasing their respective gods, or states.
Despite this, I think people should be free to worship. I just don’t think people have a right to enforce their religious doctrine on anyone else.
I certain don’t think innocent people should die for those doctrines, either.