Countdown: Iraq Spinning Out of Control
By Nicole Belle Sunday Mar 30, 2008 7:50pm
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On the weekend special 5th Anniversary edition of Countdown, Keith Olbermann brings on Air America's Rachel Maddow to see if there was any way to intrude reality upon Bush's (and by extension, McCain's) insistence that the surge is working.
KO: Mr. Bush’s criteria for success or of the escalation or the surge [sic], however you want to phrase it. A reduction of violence, political reconciliation in Iraq, the ability to reduce US troop levels to where they were pre-escalation. On which of those criteria are Mr. Bush and Sen. McCain basing their claims of success in Iraq?
RM: Well, the reduction in violence did happen in some parts of Iraq for some amount of time. Obviously, from the footage you were just airing, and the news we’ve all seen this week, it is much, much worse in some other places. And in terms of political reconciliation, that’s hard to claim when some Shi’ite factions are now literally at war with each other. Not is some political metaphor, but they are literally waging war against one another in the south of the country and in parts of Baghdad. And in terms of US troops coming home, in the last few months we’ve seen more troops in Iraq than at any other time since the invasion. And as you mentioned, after the surge is over, we’ll have more troops there than before Bush announced this dramatic change in strategy after the November ’06 Republican election losses. It doesn’t look like Petraeus or Bush is going to plan to bring the troop numbers down significantly before Bush is out of office. So, if the goalposts keep moving, and if the grounds on which you’re going to claim success are never remembered or somehow moved down the field all the time, than success becomes just a political word that doesn’t have any absolute meaning at all.
KO: It’s not just goalposts. This is about the coin toss. This is about the “heads I win, tails you lose” coin toss, because when violence dips, Sen. McCain, for one, calls this a sign of progress. When violence flares, he calls it a sign that progress is fragile but both cases, he says demonstrate why American troops need to stay there.
Siun at Firedoglake looked at Moqtada al-Sadr's alleged call for a new cease fire and with help from translators at Gorilla's Guide, found that it is significantly more nuanced than the outright success that the media will allow Bush and McCain to claim.
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Sorry. I posted this on the wrong thread. Here's a question for you all. Why would Iran do this, if they are the "terra" that everyone Dem and Rep alike claim they are?
Iranian who brokered Iraqi peace is on U.S. terrorist watch list
WASHINGTON — The Iranian general who helped broker an end to nearly a week of fighting between Iraqi government forces and Shiite Muslim militiamen in southern Iraq is an unlikely peacemaker.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/32141.html
AP radio news ending an afternoon broadcast by saying words to the effect that violence was down after Iraqi government troops forced the Shiite militias to stand down. Glad to see major combat operations are over again, and the Iraq army is able to do its job without us. Assume we can pull out now?
Remember the rush to Baghdad? The time when our military was set to move slowly and carefully through the entire area/country, removing militants, guns, weapons, etc. Our administration (Bush/Cheney) suddenly gave the order to get to Baghdad as fast as possible so they could claim victory and endear themselves to the press. The same politicians that didn't listen to military history or training that says, "sweep the country to remove threats and immediately rebuild once it is safe". Our troops drove so fast, they passed all the militants that are now fighting them.
We have been suffering the consequences ever since of this failed strategy, a strategy by policticians, not generals or military people.
mattjd215 @ 3:
Well, to be fair, they did have that statue of Saddam to tear down before it was bombed mistakenly, so............
With Increased Iraq Violence, McCain Limits Baghdad Shopping to 'On-Line'
It would be great if more news analysts could be like Rachael, intelligent, articulate, accurate with her words and beautiful When I listen to her and Keith I feel like there is some real discussion, not just name calling and shiny objects to point to.
Has Iraq EVER not been spinning out of control?
Of course the more the war is front and center the more the Republican candidate (use this reference every time you use the republican candidate McCain's name) McCain is going to lose.
It's been reported today that a summit was held in Iran, and that's where the peace was brokered. On NPR, there was a report that an American colonel said he was disgusted because, in Sadr City, an Iraqi Army officer told the colonel that the Iraqi police were fighting alongside Sadr's militia. They want us out of there.
This administration is still, as it has always been, nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Events on the ground in Iraq continue to defy the Bush's administration's ongoing misrepresentation of the Iranian threat there. Just one day after Republican Senator Lindsay Graham wrongly claimed Iran was backing just one of the three Shiite forces in Basra comes word that Tehran brokered a deal aimed at halting the carnage there.
For the details, see:
"Iran Brokers Basra Deal."
The latest events on the ground in Iraq prove that al-Sadr can take the streets of Baghdad any time he wants. He just doesn't want to take on the US military directly.
WOW!
Sounds alot like cloak and dagger going on there.
A very twisted game of clue indeed. It was col mustard in the palor with the wmd!
Or agent plum with the rope in the kitchen.
or maybe it was just some write up to war writen by a very good spy writer and of course some one in the whitehouse read that book and decided,, oh yes!!!!!!!!!! this will work,, after all.
Um teacher , can we talk about treason? <-- raises hand!
Outside of making a few people a boatload of money we have no clear goals in Iraq, no definition of "Victory" and absolutely no intention of making life better for the Iraqi people.
At this point the UN should step in, order the US out and force the US to pay war reparations. (I know, i know; that will never happen. It just SHOULD happen.)
mattjd215 @ 3:
Not to mention the 500 tons of munitions they left to be secured by the revolution.
the criminals in the whitehouse are not going to end
this war. it's the criminals running this war for profit
game. bush/cheney are no more than gansters
and mafia, who don't fear the law, because they
already bought and paid for the AG and Supreme Court.
This is proof that KO was right when he said it on "Bushed" last week.
They stand up, we stand down, they fall down, we have to stand them up
And today we have They stand up, we stand down, they switch sides, we claim victory
McCain got this weird argument; heads we stay, tails we stay. What kind of argument is this? We can't stay in Iraq forever!
AL GORE FOR THE DEM CANIDATE!!!!!!!!!(it just might happen if the bitch fest with hill and barack keeps going on. I say good, neither is my fav, but Gore hands down would sweep the nation!!!)
and with that iam out of here. take care folks and have a find goodnight /eveing and a even better tomorow. Nighters folks :)
Regards,,
Everything's spinning out of control.
xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 14:
The US runs the UN, so the odds are nil. But agree, it should happen.
People won't wake up until one day they wake up and find out their plumbing is worth more then their home.
http://tinyurl.com/269hp4
AgentX @ 17:
Don't forget the "turning a corner" meme. Oh, I'm getting dizzy.
Sadr has said all along that as soon as the US and allied occupiers leave Iraq THEN and only THEN will a true democracy take hold. At least 75% of the Iraqi people want the US out now. I seem to recall Bush said we would leave if asked to, but we stay and make it more difficult for the Iraqis to form their own government.
Dear John Amato,
There is a ad underneath this post of a child in distress. It is too aggressive in your face adverstisement.
skycypher @ 23:
The Bush Administration does not have an oil privatization deal with the Iraqi Government yet.
Friar Tuck @ 18:
hmmm Al 'strip mine' Gore, thats a blast from the past, and prob best left there.
xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 25:
True that. Sadr's army is self made and Sadr is no thug in my opinion. Even though he is demonized by our western media and more particularly Dick Cheney who wants him dead.
I got ONE question..... Since the Dems can't make thier way out of a sandbox ,why should I vote for anybody?
xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 25:
Cheney went over there to try to get them to get er done.
The Iranian government has finally developed the ultimate “nuclear” weapon that can swiftly destroy the financial system underpinning the American Empire. That weapon is the Iranian Oil Bourse - http://globalresearch.ca/articles/williamclarkrussia.pdf
David Hawes @ 28:
If we vote enough dems in congress and the senate, they will be able to override vetoes and keep the repugnants from being obstructionists.
skycypher @ 30:
'The American Empire' was destroyed when 'the American Empire' was first uttered.
Ron @ 31:
Really? While Obama-Clinton fans engage in a mudfight You think MORE Dems will be the cureall? really?
Wow, he sounded worse than some idiot at the end of the bar after a bender, babbling about how "we got to fight them there or we fight them here"
Why is his mental fitness never questioned?
David Hawes @ 32:
Both Ahmadinejad and Chavez are undermining the American petro dollar and this is why Iran is in the sights of the war machine from DC with these Repuglican mauraders and mafiosos.
Ben @ 24:
Then consider making a donation to it. It sounds to be a very worthy charity.
skycypher @ 35:
Agreed. But with whose army? AND with China getting it's oil from Iran,they'd frown on an ivasion of 'thier oil'.
David Hawes @ 33:
sobered up yet
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David Hawes @ 33:
Cure all? If you think that anyone can cure all the ails of this country overnight, you have be in a different reality. This administration has messed up our democracy so bad, it's going to take years. We have too start somewhere. Not voting isn't going to fix anything.
David Hawes @ 37:
It's more of a proxy war (mercenaries and contractors), a virtual shadow war with America acting as policeman and UN-like trainers building an army that we can leave to protect the petroleum spoils of the occupation.
Ron @ 40:
Why? I have None to choose. I didn't say i'm Not voting. I Am saying The Dems are looking childish.
Jezus, he dont know the difference between a Battallion/Brigade after 5 years of war.
1) Squad
2 or more squads =
2) Platoon
2 or more Platoons =
3) Company
Two or more Companies =
4) Battallion
Two or more Battallions =
4) Brigade
Two or more Brigades =
5) Division
1st Infantry Division, 4th Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division, etc., etc...you know George, the ones you blather are "successful" in your guerrilla war, the ones on their 3rd and 4th tours, fighting an enemy you created. You might want to brush up on this, you are the Commander in Chief, no matter what Cheney told you
David Hawes @ 39:
let me hear you tell about thoes blown up bodies big boy!!!!!
skycypher @ 41:
That's easy in Iraq. Towar with Iran gets China into it
I love the way Keith has Rachel Maddow on like A. She knows what she's talking about and B. She has even a hint of fairness.
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David Hawes @ 45:
Friar Tuck @ 18:
Don't know about that. I like Al, but he has a way of getting stupid when he runs for office.
David Hawes @ 47:
sure! hell a guy who played the kazoo in a polka band in the 70s and who gets laid as much as you did when the drunks dropped em fer yas got to have some pretty interesting war stories!
skycypher @ 48:
The poeple 'running for president' won't change a damn thing.
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David Hawes @ 51:
ever been to china big boy?
David Hawes @ 52:
how old are you bigboy?
David Hawes @ 51:
I disagree. The next president WILL change our geopolitical power and an new economic strategy will evolve from the demise of the "oil mad generation" dying off...
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skycypher @ 55:
OK Don't stop believin.
David Hawes @ 57:
You came up with a good response for yourself.
Ron @ 58:
Ron-You say 'things will change'. It's your ball Not mine.
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David Hawes @ 59:
Don't expect change to be from the top down. If you are not willing to work for change, nothing will change for you.
David Hawes @ 59:
These are the people YOU Chose. Not Me. This is the political climate That IS. NOW. IF You trulely believe THESE candidates will 'change the world' , I wish You Luck.
David Hawes @ 56:
well guess you havent paid any more attention then me , im 73 and never played in a polka band , but i read with interest your description on explodeing bodies! where did you get to see any thing so gory?
David Hawes @ 62:
How do you know who I chose? Are you one of those people that blames everyone else for your problems. I don't have any sympathy for you.
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[OK Knock it off. Tyree is real and he's been posting here since day one. and he's a Korean War vet. Take the rest of this to an open thread. You are way off topic-Sitemonitor]
Ron @ 64:
ummm gee. I didn't ask for it. I have sympathy for everyone-but that'd be too heavy. OK I just see things.
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[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
[OK Knock it off. Tyree is real and he's been posting here since day one. and he's a Korean War vet. Take the rest of this to an open thread. You are way off topic-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted-Sitemonitor].
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
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'[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
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For some reason, I don't think that was the same David Hawes I have seen posting here before.
[It's his email-Sitemonitor]
Ron @ 73:
I just don't remember him acting so badly before.
[He hasn't]
skycypher @ 41:
Maybe Chimpy and Cheney have this fantasy that the Sunni world is going to rise up and swallow Iran,
whats the point of them scaring the US pop about Iran, nobody cares really here. But SA and the other Sunni countries in the Arab world (and Israel) might go along with BOP2 which has the line 'of course we will support you and provide backup'
odanny @ 34:
I have never, not even once, questioned Bush's mental illness. :)
chris @ 46:
Spoke like a true Rush fan. :)
Wow, he sounded worse than some idiot at the end of the bar after a bender, babbling about how “we got to fight them there or we fight them here”
Why is his mental fitness never questioned?
From where I sit, his mental fitness was never a question.
xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 76:
Wow, just like the mainstream media. Who'd a thunk it
" . . but both cases, he says demonstrate why American troops need to stay there."
Yosarrian" That's some catch, that Catch-22.
Doc Daneeka" It's the best there is"
We are sooo screwed!
I am writing down exactly what WILL happen when we get a Democrat in the presidents office again:
Because the MSM swallow the "surge is working" schtick without question EVERY time Bush says it then regurgitate it to the masses, they are believing it. Because the MSM swallow the "surge is working" schtick without question EVERY time McCain says it then regurgitate it to the masses, they are believing it. Because the MSM swallow the "surge is working" schtick without question EVERY time Petraeus says it then regurgitate it to the masses, they are believing it. At every turn the media tells us as if it is a fact that the surge is working - so what happens when the Democratic president, making a rational assessment of the debacle, tells us that it is NOT working?
The Republicans howl en masse that the Democrats lost the war for us. AND. THE. PEOPLE. WILL. BELIEVE. IT. In this country with its 8 second attention span repetition is truth.
Without a concerted effort to get the facts out, without confronting these liars every time they utter the party line, they will hang this around our necks because that is the kind of disreputable assholes they are. But don't forget, we will have let them.
Oh goody goody! We libs are so happy that Iraq is spinning out of control!!!
Does Bush remind anyone else of Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf, (aka Comical Ali or Baghdad Bob)? So much for Roger Rosenblatt's assertion that 9/11 brought an end to the age of irony.
Any excuse to keep the colonization process going. another reason I can't support HRC, because it's going to be more of the same.
chris @ 46:
Let's see...Rachel Maddow: "A graduate of Castro Valley High School in Castro Valley, California, Maddow later obtained a degree in public policy from Stanford University in 1994. She then received a Rhodes Scholarship in 1995 and used it to obtain a D.Phil. in political science from Lincoln College, Oxford University."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Maddow#Education
I'd say she probably knows what she's talking about.
george bush is the most ignorant son of a bitch I have seen in my lifetime.
What is the matter with people that back this fool?
Just the blind leading the blindly stupid.
There is no more ignorant creatures on this planet then republicans.
just god damned idiots perverts child molesters liars and criminals.
Lets fill gitmo with these stupid fools!
Well I guess this is all part of the plan, right?
They're just using this tragedy to maximize their political gains. From now until the election, they'll use it to try to convince people (unsuccessfully) that troops should remain in Iraq.
After the Dems win, they'll continue using it to argue that the dems have made things much worse by making change X, whatever X is. If the Dems listen to popular opinion, X would most likely be a withdrawal of some sort.
Then the Republicans use that to try and work on recovering their power for the next election, arguing that they're the