KS Man Dies After Being Tased At Goodyear Plant
By Logan Murphy Wednesday Apr 02, 2008 8:16amCJOnline: (h/t J & Scarce)
The Shawnee County Sheriff's Office on Tuesday released the identity of a Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. employee who died Sunday after being tased by a sheriff's deputy.
The man who died was Walter E. Haake Jr., 59, of Lawrence. However, the sheriff's office released no other details about what led to the tasing at the Topeka Goodyear plant.
Early reports indicated Haake had been suffering from a medical condition and had resisted emergency personnel's efforts to subdue him. The sheriff's office said after several attempts to control Haake, a deputy used a Taser on him.
Haake was taken by ambulance to a Topeka hospital and later pronounced dead. Read on...
Here we go again. We've covered some of the recent incidents involving tasers, and just last week an 11 year old girl was tased in school to "stop a violent temper tantrum." This one ranks right up there with the worst of them and is sure to reignite the taser debate. I realize that all the facts of this incident haven't been released, but it was known that this man suffered from a medical condition that was serious enough that his employer was trying to keep him from driving himself home -- this should have been a no-brainer and the deputies should have found a better way to handle this situation.
*Update: New details have been released and it appears Haake had fallen down some stairs at home before going to work that day and he was actually tased 3 times before being thrown to the ground and handcuffed. He quickly became unresponsive and they performed CPR for 20 minutes before they removed his handcuffs.
Login or Register to post comments.
Primero!!!
In this particular case I would like to see more of what went on. The cops out where I live use their guns instead of tasers when trying to subdue someone with a mental problem. It MAY be that this deputy was trying to refrain from using too much force and I'd hate to spread the idea that tasing is not as effective as shooting.
I have asked for a couple of decades now why cops don't carry anaesthetic guns. Never have gotten a good answer.
Man...these "non-lethal" weapons are not really livin up to their hype...fuckin cops are probably like.."Well at least I didn't shoot him!"
No Brainer, indeed. Tasers are not being introduced to their users properly, it would seem, as the effects of an electrical jolt vary from one person to another. This death should be tracked back to the issuer of the taser, and that entity held liable.
If an ordinary person used a taser in a hostile situation, how much you want to bet that person would be charged with with an assault crime? Yet............
Medford Tim @ 2:
Maybe because you never know what chemical or substance one might have a fatal allergy to.
I wonder what Tasers do to people with implanted defibrillators. At my age I doubt if I'll find out - But you never know these days.
You know, based on what I'm reading here, the guy didn't break any laws. I don't understand why the taser was pulled out in the first place.
The man may have been going into diabetic shock. Some tend to get violent and resist help when that occurs.
bizona @ 6:
That's true, but I think it's safe to say that EVERYBODY has a "fatal allergy" to electrocution.
I don't know if you all read the article on the 11 year old, but those are some sick parents..."She deserved it" was one of the more common responses. Tasing isn't supposed to be a punishment I thought?
If the man wasn't armed, seems to me a couple or three policemen could have overpowered him. Cops seem to be too quick to use the tasers. Just like they did with the kid of the famous "don't tase me bro." They clearly had that kid down and under control when they zapped him.
I think the key to this story is that the man was having some kind of medical condition, and someone in a position to use better judgment, decided to administer electric shock, without regard for what the man's medical status may have been.
Negligence, at best.
ShouldBeWorking @ 11:
I was bothered by that too. My wife works at a grammar school and she's encountered plenty of parents like that. Funny thing is that they're the first ones to scream that they're going to sue when someone looks cross-eyed at their little darling.
When will these murderers who find employment at cops ever be taken to task?
I work in a mental health crisis unit and deal with violent people all the time. Even when we have a skeleton crew there are enough trained people there to subdue somebody. But even then we get hurt. I was out 14 months with a total shoulder separation that required 3 surgeries and still isn't right.
While I totally understand that people can lose it and become out of control - even children, I can't fault deputies for doing what they have to in order to subdue a person. We've had some extremely violent children who are large enough to really hurt somebody and they have.
The media always makes it sound like some poor, sweet 11-y/o was brutalized but if you had to deal with some of the kids we do you'd think differently. While it may not be the kid's fault (they may be extremely mentally ill or have extremely poor parenting) that doesn't make them any less dangerous.
There are a lot of times I wish we had a "Wild Kingdom" dart gun that could put a person down in seconds from a safe distance.
There is no training in the world that even executed perfectly can guarantee you won't get seriously injured if you actually have to put your hands on somebody which is why we avoid it until absolutely necessary (the person is endangering themselves or others).
Before anyone casts stones try putting yourself in that kind of danger day after day and ask yourself how much you're willing to let your own body be broken in order to not harm the person who is causing the damage in the first place.
ShouldBeWorking @ 11:
It's not supposed to be punishment. It's supposed to subdue a person so he can't harm anyone else.
I am hearby serving notice that if ANY law enforcement officer of ANY kind EVER uses one of these on myself or any of my children I WILL KILL THEM!
Try me!
I think this is the way we combat this problem.
skypilot @ 9:
Without knowing the circumstances of what was going on I agree with skypilot. When a person goes into diabetic shock they become very uncooperative just before they go comatose.
Everyone has heard of the Polish immigrant (spoke no English) who was tased to death within 25 seconds of the RCMP arriving at Vancouver Airport last fall?
http://tinyurl.com/38y9em
(Link is to CBC)
What happened to common sense? I'm curious to find out if Haake's supervisor told police about him falling down the stairs prior to them using the taser on him.
Mike the Canuck @ 19:
Does the reason a person is violent matter to the person he's being violent toward? If a guy is trying to kill you because he had a bad experience totally unrelated to you do you do nothing?
Just asking.
earl @ 20:
you bet...and as it turns out there was a polish speaking official (according to global tv) in the area
PS. Regarding my post @16, we never use any kind of weapons to subdue people. Only ourselves. And like I said, we get hurt too often.
We need to give tasers the death penalty.
Why should police be allowed to carry the pocket electric chair?
Who the ef do they think they are??
StevePam @ 25:
What would you do when confronted with a person who is extremely violent toward others?
We saw some red flags when back in 2004..
Quite a Bush Homeland security nominee.... ( and then you have to ask why )
Bernard Kerik made millions from Taser International, which does business with the agency.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-12-09-kerik_x.htm
Also... In light of all of the chaos that our country is experiencing.
researching... ALL Bush Signing Statements...
On Jan. 18, 2007 George W. Bush issued Executive Order 13422 (E.O.),
which amended Executive Order 12866, ---> Regulatory Planning
http://ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4120/1/85/?TopicID=2
Send To Congress and whats left to the Media:
RESEARCH ALL 2001-2008 BUSH SIGNING STATEMENTS
http://www.coherentbabble.com/signingstatements/SSann2002.htm#2002-08
It looks as though Bush Is "Tasering" ... and Deliberately Harming Our Country and People
CafeenMan @ 26:
What did they do BEFORE tasers???
If you can't take the heat don't be a police officer period.
The pocket electric chair is no solution.
I work with people who are idiots too as do most people but I don't get to electricute them nor do I think THE POCKET ELECTRIC CHAIR should be the EASY BUTTON for chicken-shit lazy cops.
In the words of our all-knowing administration..."they volunteered"
CafeenMan @ 26:
I understand the points you're making, but Haake wasn't violent, he was resisting treatment and was not a threat to anyone. He obviously wasn't thinking clearly, but from everything I've read about the incident so far, he wasn't trying to attack anyone, he wanted to be left alone. I do have a question for any medical professionals who might read this -- they performed CPR on him for 20 minutes while he was handcuffed. Does that make a difference on the effectiveness of CPR?
This was actually a dress rehearsal for the Obama/Clinton "We call it universal but its really not even close" healthcare plan.
Enjoy.
Mike the Canuck @ 23:
I heard the kid who took the cell video interviewed on As It Happens while the mounties still had his camera, they GAVE it back to him later --- without deleting the video ...weird. If they had deletedit, there would have been no case:
"dude had a heart attack, nothing to see here' ...
StevePam @ 28:
They did take the heat. And I asked a specific question that you completely avoided. If somebody is violently attacking somebody your job is to protect (kids for example), do you resolve it non-violently? The world is waiting for a better answer. What's yours?
Don't kid yourself this countries a dangerous place now with every rent a cop rent and security guard with a 10th grade education armed to the teeth and ready to kill.
There is no "taser debate". Pigs like Giuliani and Kerik and the freaks that run Blackwater own stock. Therefore, Taser Good, Sell Many!
police state?
Just drop the "non-lethal" crap. Tasers have proven to be often enough. Then law enforcement or security may use them like they would real handguns and can't hide behind the "non-lethal" legalese anymore when things go wrong.
Logan Murphy @ 29:
It sounds to me like the response of law enforcement was over the top. My peeve here is that liberals particularly think there is some sort of "sheep" response to every situation and they get up in arms every time a law enforcement official hurts somebody.
I work with a lot of deputies and yes, some of them have hard-ons for their power trip. But most of them do the best they can. They deal with violent people every single day. They get singled out and executed by gang-bangers. They show up at domestic disputes and get killed ringing the doorbell. They get executed at routing traffic stops. They aren't the bad guys. They make mistakes and there are some people in the job who shouldn't be there.
But they also save a lot of lives and frankly I'm tired of hearing about them being fascists who just get off hurting people. I promise you most of them would much rather not ever be in those situations.
It seems to me a lot of people believe that every single law enforcement official should be some sort of elite special force with years of training, split-second reflexes and can perform error-free. That would limit our national law enforcement force to about three people.
Can anyone here do their job without ever making a mistake? Hell, you signed up for it. If you can't perform error-free then you shouldn't be doing it, right?
CafeenMan @ 32:
I avoided NOTHING you liar! I anwered that with......What did they do BEFORE tasers???
Who took the heat? WTF is that supposed to mean?? Heat from that 11 year old girl??That elderly immigrant??The elderly guy who fell down the steps and refused help??That kid who was pissed at Kerry???
Now which one was attacking children??? Oh I forgot..thats your off topic fantasy that has NOTHING to do with what I said so stop DEMANDING I answer it.
I said nothing about resolving things non-violently.
I am all for settling disputes with violence AND I stand by every word of my post.
spiritcatcher @ 36:
It's not non-lethal. It's mostly non-lethal. It should be the last response before the last response - a gun.
It would make me happy for anyone here to tell me how to prevent a violent person from hurting anyone else with a guarantee you won't get hurt in the process and a guarantee the violent person won't get hurt either.
Anyone?
One thing for sure... we have never seen this level of insanity.
Keep a list of Police Dept's where this is occurring in American cities and towns..
Citizens should confront their local elected city, county, and town officials
and find out where and who trained them.
StevePam @ 38:
My question to you was how would you resolve the situation. And you're saying your answer was "What did they do before using tasers"? I guess I don't see that as an answer to any question I asked. So where did I lie?
Anyway, I'll ask you again. How would you stop a violent person with a guarantee nobody gets hurt in the process?
Or how about this. When deputies are on-scene and the violent person hurts somebody that's the deputy's fault too for not stepping in? Not claiming that's your viewpoint. Just asking.
I think it's high time we classified tasers the same as guns. You can shoot someone with either, and depending on the location the effect can be either death or submission. Tasers are not non-lethal, as we see over and over, and the rapidly indiscriminate use of them is appalling.
Any adult that would use such a weapon on a CHILD should be put in jail for brutality. There's no 11 year old girl in the world that needs to be tased by an adult. These weapons are designed to bring down fully grown men, so using one on a child is criminal, in my mind.
I have utmost respect for police, as they do put their lives on the line every day. However, common sense, hard work, and compassion seem to have been replaced with the easy excuse of these fucking tasers. They're no different than guns, and should be used with as much restraint.
more at my blog...
Absolutely no doubt that the deputy should recieve the death penalty for 1st degree murder considering the circumstances.
Terrible @ 43:
Finally we hear from somebody who witnessed the event personally.
And let that be a lesson to the rest of the union folks who still think they are entitled to a safe,just and fair working condition. Thats such pre 911 thinking. I know i am nuts but has the rest of the world completely caught up to me now ? Out of control, rouge cops are just another reason many are using to avoid traveling to the good ole ? USA these days.
Ummmmm... seriously, WTF?! Whatever happened to the good ol' gurney with leather straps to subdue someone with a medical condition?
I don't need to know any more. Sue the bastards. Sue every damn police department that uses tazers for any reason. This man committed no crime, and even if he did, he did not deserve this.
ood callon the diabetic symptoms, but with a significant fall down some stairs prior to the episode, one would also have to rule out a head injury.
So either we ended up with a heart attack as a result of the exertion of the struggle, or the taser put the man into asystole.
my question is would an automatic defibulator been effectiv to bring him back.
CafeenMan @ 41:
Oh..more fantasy scenarios for me to answer....go away gnat.
You lied when you said I avoided your question.
First of all, I owe you no explanation.
Second if you pretend you can't comprehend my answer from the question I asked then you are just being an A-hole.
Third nothing is truly guaranteed but I do know that if cops did things the way they used to there would be no deaths from tasers.
Obviously you missed something because the cases we are talking about have NOTHING to do with your question!
Either the pocket electric chair should be outlawed or killing to make ones job easier should be legal for everyone.
StevePam @ 49:
Are you always this hostile? And you feel you have the right to judge others?
You obviously don't HAVE to answer my question and you obviously aren't going to. I was pretty sure you couldn't anyway.
Hey, cops should be allowed to kill anyone they want at any time for no reason. That's the official GOP policy. Since torturing people to death is now US policy, what right do US citizens have to protest against non-violent but non-compliant arrestees in handcuffs?
The Republican Party has made is very clear since Bush Senior was made President in 1981:
If you resist authority, you will be killed.
Let it be known that CafeenMan was pwned on this day.
I saw it and it was righteous.
As a physician, I can offer a hypothesis: The man suffered head trauma in the fall at home, and the trauma of "throwing him to the ground" ended up killing him as a result.
Cops should stay out of medical care. And doctors should stay out of law enforcement. The two don't mix.
I don't think tasers should be outlawed. I think police officers that misuse tasers that result in death should be prosecuted and fired. From all indications, Haake did not attack anyone, he merely resisted help. In this case the officer should be prosecuted and fired.
Cops like this should be thrown in jail where they belong. This is disgusting. Lazy ass police who would rather use their tasers than do their jobs.
And now a man is dead because of these cops. Worse than criminals.
Not a Goodyear for the KS man.
CafeenMan @ 50:
You have no question you fool!GEEZ!
In all of your replies to me do you feel you had a point?..not one SHRED of substance unless you think...."oh yeah?....well what would you do if this happened or that"
Big efing deal..you still said nothing.
Yes I am hostile toward aggressive idiots.I already told you I am all for settling things with violence
You have NO questions!Only IGNORANT off-topic insults and demands that I answer your retarded,unrelated fantasies.
Not happening.
Now you answer some questions.
What was your point to picking me to keep replying to?Not a smart choice was it?
I was hoping you would admit to yourself that you are making a fool of yourself and getting served and quitely slink back under the bridge but now I see I have to stop feeding you for you to get the picture and go.......
CafeenMan, the argument you are making is quite ridiculous when you consider that it hinges on this notion that a someone being violent towards others can't be subdued without someone being at risk, yet in this case the only violence seems to have been directed towards the man who is now a corpse. If you are interested in trivializing the pointless death of a man who broke no laws by broadening the scope of the conversation to taser mortality statistics, perhaps you should consider what your position might be if that man had been, say, your father.
I suppose you are all for extraordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques and the abolition of habeas corpus because hey, the people that are jailed and tortured without significant evidence or due process cant ALL be innocent right?
Cafeenman is just throwing up Jack Bauer Wingnut fantasy arguments. There was no one in danger, the man committed no crime. And surely the cops on the site could have used a standard takedown. Tasered 3 times? Sick and unnecessary.
Cops kill innocent sick civilian. Beginning, middle and END of this story.
Except that it will probably happen again as more and more police are trained to use tasers like they are some sort of Star trek stun gun.
Before tasers they used their nightsticks which could cause concussions and hematomas and/or chokeholds which asphyxiated arrestees.
Tasers were supposed to be safe; I imagine everyone hearing, "Set your phasers on stun."
The problem is we're dependent on technology to make things easier for us. If they could create a smoke bomb tommorrow from cannabis, they'll be an arrestee with lung problems or goes into diabetic shock after he needs a Twinkie.
Arrest me, officer!
Tasing, starvation blockades and strategic bombing
We are hard-wired to find the direct application of physical violence on our fellow human beings stressfull and unpleasant. Good thing, too, or we would have gone extinct soon after the invention of the club. The three things named above predictably allow and encourage violence to get completely out of hand, because they short-circuit that protective hard-wiring by allowing deadly destruction to be applied without any effort that feels at all violent to the perpetrator.
Nobody would want to do the kicking, punching, hammer-locking that would have been required in this case to subdue this 58yo without killing him, precisely because he was an old, sick man, not some cartoon villain. However wrong factually, of course it felt less violent to the officers at the scene to tase this victim than to kick, punch and hammerlock him to the ground. Tasing just involves pushing a button.
The best answer to this problem is to do what we can to prevent the short-circuiting of our protective hardwiring. No one gets issued a taser until they have sat through horrific video footage of sick, old men being killed, however unintentionally, with a taser. Then after they get the best that we can do to viscerally reconnect pushing that button with potentially killing a human being, we give everyone who gets a taser the proper training in taking down with minimal violence people who can't be reasoned with. Psych techs deal with floridly crazy people all the time, and I've never heard of one of them killing a patient. No one should get issued a taser -- or a truncheon, or a gun -- until and unless they get this psych tech training, and demonstrate the knowledge, skills and attitudes necessary to apply it correctly.
We expect the police to deal with people who won't or can't listen to reason. We have to give them full training in the full spectrum of means to do this, so that they can choose the least violent method possible in any given situation, not just the method that viscerally feels less violent.
The same applies to us as to our servants, the police. When we feel (usually an erroneous feeling, but that topic deserves its own dissertation) that some other nation can't be reasoned with and needs to be taken down, we have to limit ourselves to the least violent method to achieve that end. Starvation blockades and strategic bombing may feel less violent to the perpetrator, but most assuredly are not less violent than sending in the infantry. There are international laws already on the books, that we have simply ignored for 50 years, that limit the violence of warfare to combatant-on-combatant violence. As with the taser, you could, as we habitually do in self-justification, blame new technology for our failure to act in accordance with rules sanctioned by the long experience of human nature. But, just as tasers really present no new self-control issues not seen previously with the truncheon (Remember Rodney King? Not a taser in sight.) or the gun, so the strategic bomber and the submarine only made it somewhat easier to do something already known to be wrong from long experience, trying to win a war by killing enemy non-combatants.
A US electorate that was serious about regaining self-control after 50 years of reckless and highly destructive behavior, would first put itself through the moral equivalent of training films in which sick, old men are unintentilnally murdered by taser. We would put ourselves through our own Nuremberg Tribunals, and finally hold accountable the public servants who enabled and facilitated the crimes. But that, of course, would be merely hypocritical blame-shifting unless it is accompanied by a serious acceptance that the guilt is really ours as an electorate. They're just our servants, and they're not supposed to be fascist Leaders. After ridding ourselves of the criminals, we would then have to resolve to never again allow these crimes, the targeting of civilians in war, no matter what the imagined benefit to ourselves, in the future in our dealings with other nations. We need to call another international congress to revisit whatever modifications and adaptations to targeting civilians actually might be required by new technology in the law of warfare. I doubt that there is anything non-trivial in that respect -- neither the means nor the temptation to the mass murder of enemy civilians in war is even remotely new. This is not really a technology problem. It's a self-control problem. If we can't or won't accept the principle that not targeting non-combatants is the very essence of the distinction between war and mutual genocide, which principle is backed up by the practical observation that targeting non-combatants simply doesn't work for any war aims short of genocide; then we simply are a rogue nation that the rest of the world must either band together to destroy, or submit to eventual genocide at our hands. At the end of the day, we have to give up the narcissistic delusion that killing enemy civilians does anything but make the enemy more, not less, likely to oppose us to the death. We didn't respond to 9/11 by becoming more open to the idea that maybe we hadn't been fair to the Palestinians. Do we imagine that other nations are any different?
If we are going to set ourselves up as the world's policeman (again, a topic that deserves its own dissertation), the least that reason requires of us is to show the same professional ethics, including self-restraint and insight into human nature (our own and that of others), that we expect of the police forces that we grant the use of public violence to maintain order within our own country.
It's real easy for nuts like Cafeenman to justify this abuse, UNTIL it happens to his family. And if nuts like him have his way, it's more and more likely that one of his relatives will get Tased and killed.
Quit justifying a murder. Please.
In regards to the question of How to subdue someone who is violent and not get hurt yourself...
When I worked in a psychiatric ward, it was quite common to have to deal with people who were being violent to themselves, to others, or to their environment. Our response to subduing the individual was quite simple; we sandwiched them between a matress and a floor or wall or another mattress. No one ever got hurt.
Now, every cop car being equipped with a mattress might be odd, however, I'm sure that an alternative means of subduing someone other than electrocuting them has got to be available.
Cops have armor to wear, much like football players. They can tackle the violent individual like they've been trained to. Electrocuting, (I refuse to minimize what it is by using the word "tase"), someone who is already handcuffed and down on the ground is just over the top police brutality.
Like previous posters have commented, What did the police do before tasers? Violence is nothing new, but portable electro-shock is. Perhaps it's not exactly the right tool for the job.
Too bad cops don't get Naval Seal or martial art training in the move, counter-move.
greg white @ 63:
Were they mowing the grass?
Come to think of it EST was outlawed years ago, although there's now a newer version called ECT that's creeping back although it's controversial. Isn't that addressable to the taser controversy. Afterall, in the former two, doctors were applying it.
There has been a recent change, about ten years, where police seem to have re-categorized non-violent passive resistance to be an assault on police.
That anyone can even think, "It's good for the police to tase non-violent people" is already so very wrong. That obnoxious kid at the Kerry event should never, ever have been tased. The police feel so confident with abusing their authority that they can torture non-violent resisters on national TV and our docile US populace, numbed from decades of 'Cops', no longer find that to even be a problem.
Tasing non-violent people for simply refusing authoritariansim must be outlawed nation-wide immediately.
66 Comrade Rutherford
I guess you've heard about the army tank that sets up something like a force field that burns people, supposedly without permanent damage.
Their hope is peaceful protesters would be driven away from the tank, but anyone trying to withstand the pain to get closer is a threat they can kill.
The best answer to this problem is to do what we can to prevent the short-circuiting of our protective hardwiring. No one gets issued a taser until they have sat through horrific video footage of sick, old men being killed, however unintentionally, with a taser.
NO, the best answer is that these cops know they will lose their jobs and face criminal charges for unnecessary use of these weapons. And it should be against the law PERIOD to use these weapons more than once. Can we teach the police to grow some balls and learn some grappling/submission maneuvers? How hard is it to subdue a sick 60 year old?
A cop neighbor of mine got thrown off the force for tasing his neighbor at a party. What a cutup that guy was... Throw these goons off the force. They have no place in Policing a park for cig butts, much less our neighborhoods.
And tasing an 11 year old? Jesus- you imagine YOUR 11 year old being tased by the cops and you tell me it's okay to stop fits. I guess its better than another cop (Still on the force here in lubbock- Ofc. Tracy Taylor) blowing away a 14 year old with a steak knife. If you can't subdue an 80 pound child without using 3 bullets, maybe you shouldn't be on the force. Seriously.
I just called the Goodyear plant in Topeka and spoke to some consumer relations asshole who yelled at me, cursed me out and hung up on me. As far as I'm concerned we should march on their plant and disassemble it with our bare hands! Enough is enough! What will it take? A new civil war? The American People vs. the Shadowy Overlords, perhaps? Civil war is looming large, and I believe it is just what our country needs. We won't be able to take our country back from the Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi worshippers of Moloch. I'm sick of secret societies running the show while the rest of us suffer more and more every year. WE MUST RISE UP AGAINST SUCH ABUSES AND MAKE THESE COMPANIES, POLICE, ETC ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR MURDERING OF U.S. CITIZENS!!!
At 50000V , 20A in 10sec pulse and with the taser's track record so far, you point that thing at me, you might as well point a gun at me.
Perhaps, we should reconsider calling these weapons as "non-lethal?"
I agree that cops need a non-lethal means to take down violent offenders, but no assailant is going to carry around his medical records.
I should add that this tank is supposedly only going to be used for foreign operations, although who knows?
If that 11 year old girl didn't have a Hispanic name and had blond hair and blue eyes instead, would she still have been charge with assault and battery? Just asking...
69 Indigowatcher
Moloch was smeared in the Bible. He was the sun God of the Canaanites, possibly the Ammonites, in Palestine, ocassionally worshipped by the Jews as well. Apparently what caused the hubub bub was passing children over a bonfire, not burning them to death, in a form of baptism/naming ceremony. Maybe there were some sacrifices, but probably only during extreme duress.
Here's a Youtube link to a scene in one of my favorite movies, Metropolis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiOQ5RV07xA
Fade @ 68:
This was my point exactly. Years ago a good friend of mine Dan Pinkowski taught martial arts to County police and prison guards.
Did the people he trained abuse martial arts to the point of deadly force?
No!
So why are the same people ok with abusing tasers to the point of making them deadly?
There are too many variables to make the blanket statment that tasers are safe or non-lethal!
Reminds me of Chuck Schumer claiming flash-bangs can't kill..... in a documentary about the Waco hearings conducted by the Joint Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives, surely one of the most gratingly memorable characters must be the snide, sneering, sanctimonious, acid-tongued Representative Charles Schumer (D-NY). Fortunately, Waco: The Rules of Engagement allows the ever-obnoxious Schumer repeatedly to discredit himself with his own words. In one segment of the hearings Schumer is shown upbraiding defense attorney Dick DeGuerin for referring to the FBI's "flash-bangs" as grenades. Schumer fulminates: "This idea of the FBI having hand grenades, not flash-bangs, but hand grenades — And then the coup de grace, Mr. DeGuerin says flash-bangs can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything about these things knows they can't."
The documentary then cuts to Congressman Bob Barr (R-CA) questioning ATF agent Jim Cavanaugh. Barr asks if the flash-bangs used by the ATF and referred to by Schumer are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 6845 (f), to which Cavanaugh answers in the affirmative. Barr then asks if it is true that they can kill people, to which Cavanaugh replies, "Certainly. Yes sir." So much for the self-anointed know-it-all, Mr. Schumer.
Outlaw the pocket electric chair....no one has a right to kill people just to make their job easier.
Tasers... the non-leathal alternative??? Apparently, not quite so much as advertised... We're starting to see a fairly consistent track record of both lethal incidents as well a