Ava Lowrey: FALLOUT: Coming Home From the War in Iraq
By John Amato Thursday Apr 03, 2008 9:00pm
C&L's pal Ava just made a short film:
A short film by Ava Lowrey about the war in Iraq and its effects on our returning troops. Pro-war or anti-war, we should all take the time to listen to what our returning troops have to say.
Login or Register to post comments.
frack!
This is hardly what I would call a film. and it's not very insightful for that matter.
i live next to a vietnam vet still recovering from what happened forty years ago. good man, but totally broken.
Blackwater Iraq contract to be renewed
CNN.com - 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
Help Phil Donahue promote this important movie, directed by Phil Donahue and Ellen Spiro, send this video link to others to make people aware of Tomas Young's story,.
j4ta, That was a little harsh wasn't it? Here we have brave young men and women returning time and again for a war that we don't even know what success is. These young men and women are braver than me. Many of them joined because of patriotism. The scars they suffer from is the direct fault of the Bush Admin.
horrible composition. someone please tell Ava to take a film making class. Try getting the camera eye-level and get closer to the subject.
La. can you believe it! Good old BlackWater! Ripping off taxpayers for years! When I read that on Yahoo( It didn't appear on MSM until later. Figures.) My jaw dropped. Between the struting Rambo's and the rape cases, couldn't our elected leaders stepped in and said,"No friggin Way!" But I guess that would require balls. Something these spineless Pols obviously don't have!
.
"I'm 24 and still am afraid to be at home, alone."
That says enough about the mental reprocussions about war.
Ava's best video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDXC26nvdXM&feature=related
.
....sorry, I have no idea what he was saying at the end. I played it back four or five times, but not sure what it was he said after he was talking about walking around with a fire arm at night.
It wasn't very insightful. I'm sad to hear he say "hell" everyday. I was in Vietnam, and I saw it everyday we weren't back in the camp, and sometimes we would see it there too.
This is my "bone of contention" with listening to veterans in that UNLESS you are in the front, you don't know what the f*ck you are talking about. Maybe you see "hell" once in awhile, but you put a 11B on your mos card and walk the front lines, and then you know what the f*ck you are talking about. I get red when I hear my vet buddies talking about how terrible it was, when they were in fact in the Air Force, or Navy, or some other mos that kept their asses safe in the back while we watched each other's asses to stay alive in the front.
This guy made his film, but he really didn't share anything from my perspective.
.
j4ta, Nikolai,
Since you can do better, let's see it.
.
j4ta
why dont you get off your ass and do something rather than flame an up and coming film maker/activist
you belong on a site like aicn where you can spew your hate against some dumbass trailer
i hope i live long enuf to cast a vote for ava for prez
P.D. @ 8:
I can believe it. Besides, I was wondering what tonights Friday night surprise would be.
This is obviously it.
.
Hulk,
In Iraq, there is no "front line" when that line encompasses everything.
Hell, even the US Emerald City(aka the "GREEN ZONE" isn't safe.
Fuck, the other day they had to, HAD TO evac the embassy because of the mortar shells.
DO YOU NOT READ THE NEWS?
Incredible...
.
La, and of course we hear the delightful news about BlackWater on Friday! The dump news day of the week. They would never announce this on a Monday, you know, because the talking heads would just have to talk about it
The worse blackwater is in the strain of malaria that is spreading there.
Max-Hussein-1 @ 14:
Do You Know what 11B is?
Uncle Joe Hussein Mccarty
You could have said the same thing about the critic of the film without being obnoxious.
Zedetch
Jesus, between the millions of Iraqi refugees to the over 100,000 Iraqis dead, we are going to pay a heavy price for this war. The humanitarian crisis, coupled with a young generation of uneducated Iraqi youth spells doom for our reputation and our soul. I truly am bereft.
slightly o.t., but where's sphinx been lately?
for those of you who don't know, e.t.'s one of the sharpest gals on the blog-o-sphere.
her sexiest rhetorial trademark is the all-cap statement, followed by a simple period.
and she's TOTALLY fearless.
*rhetoriCal -sorry aMIGOS.
.
Mudshark,
What does putting an 11B have anything to do with what this soldier in the film experienced? Hulk is attempting to compare his experience in Vietnam to what is happening in Iraq.
APPLES to ORANGES.
Until Hulk spends time IN Iraq, then how the fuck does he get off speaking about another soldier's experience there IN Iraq?
11B = Strawman
.
Max-Hussein-1 @ 22:
simple question Max, do you know what 11B is?
Ava's movie just begins to hint at the trauma suffered by combat veterans. One VA doctor (Jonathan Shay) calls it "psychological injury." The problem Michael describes (being afraid to be home alone) is only one rather mild example of the psychological damage these combat veterans are dealing with every day. And John McCain still refuses to support the new GI Bill.
.
Mud,
I didn't link it so that you coudn't click it.
.
mudshark @ 23:
sorry I didn't link until after I posted.my bad.Then you must realize that Hulk must have some insight to what he's talking about.
A 11b in VN was a target. They rated that job because they have shit for brains. You know the type, "First one to smoke an oz, drop 2 714s chased by a fifth of JD wins".
Mud,
Has Hulk served in Iraq?
Did Hulk say he served in Iraq?
Then does Hulk have credibility to tell it like it is and disparage this soldier's service?
Instead, Hulk drew upon his experience in Vietnam and projected his experience several decades ago upon a 24 youth and the conflict this youth experienced in a different part of the world.
APPLES to ORANGES
mudshark @ 26:
1st off I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Max. OK, So now you know the definition of 11B, Don't you think Hulk has a little more perspective on what it takes to do the job?
Max-Hussein-1 @ 28:
I actually see few of similarities. 1st illegal war,2nd you can't tell who the enemy is(don't go there please),3rd It's being run by politicians who haven't a clue on how to win.
.
Mud,
No fight here with me. I'm just pissed that our Government uses our troops for their personal gain and not for what they are meant for... DEFENSE of the Nation.
Now about Iraq being similar to Vietnam... Points 1,2,3 are similar and that's about it. Other than that, it's a different place, time and conditions. Now, riddle me this, where is there NOT a front line in Iraq? At least Hulk could walk back from his front lines.
.
Max-Hussein-1 @ 31:
Max, My cousin would debate that one with you.67,68. just in time for Tet.
Why does everyone still insist on calling this a "war?" It's an occupation. The "peremptory strike" was over May 2, 2003. If you want to call killing off Iraqis who are defending the U.S. invasion of their country a war, so be it. However, with the current state of affairs of ethnic cleansing, partitioning of neighborhoods, suicide bombers and other chaotic situations, our troops are nothing now but riot police with a license to kill.
The right wingers WANT everyone to still call this a war because the word instills fear! We already know the drill. Start calling it what it is, an occupation, and start watching McCain supporters begin jumping ship. Americans do not want to be known as occupiers!
also v-nam was the United states first insurgent war where there were no front lines, they divided S vnam into corp operations, with hunter killer teams attempting to cutoff supplies going to the cong, after TET 68, the operations were against PAVN, working with irregulars.
highway 1 was the logistic life line for several units, and the front lines in v-nam is wherever they inserted you and you hoped you didn't get cut off.
So Hulk imho is comparing not apples and oranges, but comparing similarities in the subtle fragrance and nuances associated with life outside the wire vs life inside the wire.
Life outside the wire in V-nam could be 72 hour foot patrols to see what one could stir up, to regular ambush set ups based on the intel the 3 got that day.
Life outside the wire today s more like an 6 hour patrol in a vehicle getting from point A to point B either as a show of force, or setting up presence patrols that could draw elements into battle. (call it bait and switch)
V-nam and Iraq have their competent improvised explosive makers.
What used to be called a directional platter charge back then is now called an explosively formed projectile.
where I digress from hulk is on this soldier. the remfs weren't trained to endure the lifestyle, thats why the madison avenue wonks have been compensating with this warrior creed shit. (they ripped off and modified the ranger creed so they can apply it to folks in the messkit repair platoons)
Anyway, the point is the saying during your pre war training used to be "Let no soldier die saying had I been properly trained" , what these guys got were the greeted as liberators speech which went to a shit sandwich once they realized what was really going on.
Remfs are Fobbits now, true fobbits are those that don't leave the wire, however some of the fobs are lovely targets like Falcon where they make a point to fire of a little H and I to keep folks on theri toes, They don't do it daily like khe sahn cuz there is this thing called counter battery radar, but they do it none the less, and usually associate it with some important event. take fore example ST Pats one of my buds got rocketed during St Pats, He's al ittle embarrased cuz when the alarm went off he ran right into the bld they happened to target,.so he got his concussion and a purple heart for experiencing the same kind of impact he'd get on a bad PLF or falling unexpectantly from a barstool and landing on his head..
4 months before one of the team got the million dollar wound evacing him to the states. now thems are apples and oranges, but they both got their PH for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.. the difference between now and 03-04 iraq?? Their training and expectations are much better.
I wish the same could be said about the american public.
Seymour Hersh spoke here last night. One of the points he made is that as a country, we have to deal with the well-over a million young Americans who have served and been to varying degrees, psychologically traumatized in Iraq. The cost will be great and ongoing!
mudshark @ 23:
BINGO?
Ruthless People @ 36:
Ruthless, I wouldn't bet on me tonight.at least, not a lot.:)
[Deleted. Not yet, uncle joe, but you're getting very close. Please stop it with the personal insults aimed at other commenters. Consult the commenting policy and/or contact us@ sitemonitor1@gmail.com for clarification- but I think it's pretty clear as is. Site Monitor]
Max-Hussein-1
11B is infantry...grunt. You obviously don't know wtf you are talking about. The 11b's walk the roads, they patrol the cities in platoons and they are the ones called in for battle.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. I realize that these two occupations are very similar. "front lines" is a figment of your imagination. The Green Zone is getting rockets now. Quarters get blown away too. But that is hardly to say that these soldiers face the same dangers the 11B infantry rifleman, or grunt faces.
Sorry I offended you, I read the news as much as anyone who hates this f*ckin' illegal occupation. You read into my statement something that wasn't there. Your "Hulk is attempting to compare his experience in Vietnam to what is happening in Iraq....APPLES to ORANGES" is pure bullshit. It's apples and more apples. This war is more like Vietnam that you might imagine.
My comment was how this vet really didn't share anything of substance. I was trying to point out to YOU, although I failed, that soldiers with his MOS, which is his military function, face more than the typist back in the rear will ever imagine. I was trying to point out, although I failed with you, that I get upset when I hear vets support the war who sat back and hit typewriter keys and then say how it was a "just war", when in fact there is nothing "just" about it.
Maybe I made myself a little more clear? If not, go back and read the original post.
Whoa people, enough with the insults.
duncanidho ....thank you.
My apologies. I'll back out.
I wonder how many of us that were used as human fodder for Vietnam are as angry about this occupation as I am? I get "hot" too fast.
I just hate to see more young American soldiers used as fodder again, while the politicians play this game of theirs.
Hulk @ 43:
have a nice evening Hulk.
I don't know what else to say.
how Bout "Fun Travel Adventure"
(older brother joke)
I missed the fact he was an 11 bang bang, thought he was an MP based on the non desert cammed vehicles....
anyway, there's a lot to be said about not liking to be alone at night without someone watching yer back...
Very sad...Well done, Ava. Says it all in two minutes. Thank you.
i wonder how many grunts lives were saved by others besides thier buddies, to denigerate other armed forces just because they weren in the bush is pure bullshit!!! in vietnam thier were navy seals opperating well behind enemy lines many died doing the same shit regular army grunts did , on the rivers in vietnam riverine boats out in the open came under enemy gunfire from the banks of thoes rivers and many died or were wounded , my destroyer saved many grunts lives doing the same thing we did in korea by provideing ships gunfire for relief of opposition from an attacking enemy, my ship had four men killed because they went in as far as they could to save grunts and died by enemy cannon fire , i dont think these sailors parents grieved any less for thier sons loss then the parents of any grunt who died in thoes jungles, i wont speak for the airforce they can speak for thierselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hulk @ 42:
I wish a lot. But I am afraid that many are not with us. It seems humans do not learn from the past.
Dave L.
Viet Vet 66-67
All you Vietnam veterans are the voice of experience. Lets look at it another way:
Of all the Republican swine who agitate for war, how many served in Vietnam?
Oh, well, off the top of my head that would be Chuck Hagel.
And, well, gee, hes been firmly against this clusterfuck in Iraq for a long time.
Its too bad that Bush and Cheney ducked the draft and dodged Vietnam (one dodged, one ducked)
Maybe they would know what Hulk does. And we wouldnt be in Vietnam II.
Substitute sand for jungle.
My sister lives in Central Texas and this week a young veteran panicked when traffic came to a stop that he attempted to drive in between the stopped cars and damaged 8 cars in process. The newspeople were amused and called it road rage but it just made us sad. I can picture pschological injury.
i knew that the site monitor would have no clue as to what i am doing
[No, uncle joe, I knew exactly what you were doing. I'm much more perceptive than you credit me. It wasn't the words that you were using. You were going off topic on THIS thread, and in the process you were causing people to think that you were making personal attacks. If you peruse last night's RR/AAR thread, you will see those words you used all over the comments section. Site Monitor]
My friend the Republican re-joined the National Guard so he could go to Iraq and fight.
He is now, roughly 3 years later, going as a delegate to the next level of the *Democratic* caucus locally.
Oh yeah.
One of his friend he fought with has walked a picket line for peace, against the war. Very interesting conversations when the "pro-war" people yell out at the line they're cowards. The vet says: "Ever killed a terrorist yourself? No? Well, I have...."
thot they all said...... "bomb bomb bomb... bomb bomb iran...."
just like JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN said they should....
It's sad to think about the 30,000 injured who know one talks about. My younger step brother did time in Iraq. He has PTSD, chronic insomnia, and chronic renal failure (likely from dehydration and being sent to Iraq with already borderline kidney function). He's out of the Army now, and is certainly one of the less "broken", but his life has been deeply impacted. I will never ever ever get over being angry about what George Bush and company have done with regard to Iraq-the insanity and sheer recklessness of it all is unforgivable.
Hillary.... 08
I just saw this video yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LctoUV-tag
Awesome, slow to start but a very good summary for a complicated situation. History repeats.
eastcoasty @ 51:
That is really sad.
We make dark jokes about it, but to many of the 29 percenters, vets (and generals) telling it like it is about the "war" are "hurting the troops."
to all the republicans like j4ta - show the rest of us how brave and patriotic you are and get your ass over there. it doesn't matter if you are 'too old' by an airline ticket to Baghdad and volunteer to do whatever. You are gutless chickenshits if you don't. support the war? then support the war and go fight it. I get so tired of hearing how you gutless repukes support the war by giving each other head in the mens room.....
Ref:55
After reading other posts, I feel guilty about saying the linked video is awesome. I found it moving. The "pinky show" take the time to explain things without the talking points.
If you can look past the cute cartoons, another good one related to this discussion is
The Iraq War: Legal or Illegal? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Khut8xbXK8
Bob
I doubt anyone who has ever gone to war will ever be the same. I don't care if you blow someone's brains out point blank or drop a ton of bombs on a town, or supplied the weapons that did.
I can't see how anyone who is involved in killing another person can ever be the same.
I just can't...
uncle joe hussein mccarthy @ 12:
I agree that this video clip was not very compelling, had poor videography and lacked any kind of coherent narrative. Why are you so quick to hate on others who point this out? This person posted this video and asked for feedback (look on her website). And she entered it in a film contest -- which obviously will involve more feedback. Hopefully she will learn from this criticism if she wants to be effective.
59,
Truth, who knows what the hell we did?
59,
Hit something important to think about.
I think it..could be the origin... of our "REALITY"
He says, bla, I say Who knows. Yet the real question we should be asking is WHO the hell is making this BE our reality, and why do we have to react instead of KNOW what to expect? I think the answer lies somewhere in asking why are we so compartmentalized when we are all sworn in and raised to a certain security level. If we are not all on the same side then what the sam hell does that say?
Can we somehow STOP this CRAP coming from the PENTAGON BLACK PRACTITIONERS being our next forced reality? We need to FORCE our REALITY back on them. Now how the F is that going to happen? By Stop Reacting to their propaganda. As much as it hurts to watch injustice, maybe we have to to force JUSTICE for AMERICA against the AMUR'KNS.
Where is America.
Amurkan flag waived, American flag raised.
We have roads. We have radios. We have TV.
WHY CAN'T WE FIGHT THE AMURKANS?
WE ARE AMERICANS!?
So my question my friends is... What is the next piece of shit that they will pull on us to fuck our constitutional and civil rights? And HOW LONG will it take to get our civil rights and constitutional rights back?
Now not to be off topic. "Coming home from the *war* in Iraq."
Since when did we declare war? Or are we just repeating Amurkan propaganda?
Is Amurkan Propaganda the new reality? The Reality that the FASCISTS want to change for us each day?
I say no.
I say the Pentagon should be relocated. To somewhere where AMERICA can have oversight.
I say the White house protests are unproductive now, because it's a shell game andthe the WH has nothing to do with the TRUE power of AMURKA, and every reason to OPPOSE AMERICA.
one more..
Yet the Crippled, and INJURED and Screwed Over Americans who swore oaths come back from IRAQ to AMURKA only to be greeted by database abuse, phone tapping, drug subscriptions and disinformation by the fascist AMURKAN media.
And left to ROT like myself.
(no I didn't go to IRAQ) if you were wondering I served 1981-1985
Could something I did affect / effect the Faukland Islands? I don't know cause it was compartmentalized.
We dragged mo bags that day. Got GOD KNOWS what shots(they call it vaccinations.)
Back then It was SAC, TAC, MAC, and we were TAC (RDF) Rapid Deployment Force
Maybe we don't hear voices cause they don't know this thread exists. Perhaps it's high time to reach out!?
I wouldn't join the USAF now knowing what I know.
I wouldn't work for the Government either.
Their retirement is UN-SUSTAINABLE
I'll die poor, I'll die in pain. But YOU can change it. You can change the "changer's reality"
We have got to change what they say into what WE say. We have got to think PAST their thinking. That's involves work, integrity, publicity and honesty
Gain Control over the FCC.
Force them to be engineers and uphold their mission statement. (by the way have you seen they scrubbed their mission statement?)
Gain control over the pentagon. (There are good generals out there being abused by bullshit legalese)
Force control of the Constitution at ANY and ALL cost, BUSH must go, if pelosi won't do it slay her too. (no NOT KILL I ain't fucking saying that)
Force control of the courts, stop this nonsense partisan crony shit. BALANCE the SCALES
If there's dark information on ENERGY, we need to exploit it to stop using oil. No Conspiracy shit, we are talking HOO boosters for level one, and fully converting shit to burning water next. If not other dark projects that actually work. Time to stop playing around and slapping dicks on the machine guns.
Who is with me?
And who is scared?
and who is listening but not sure?
and who thinks it's bullshit?
Maybe the open thread... scares folks off. crap.
I know if I say this shit in a regular thread I will be banned.
Wait, Wait NM this ain't an open thread.
Welp My psychobabble bad, fuck me.
Somebody must like me. That's all I got to say.
I am so tired.
"I wonder how many of us that were used as human fodder for Vietnam are as angry about this occupation as I am? I get “hot” too fast.
I just hate to see more young American soldiers used as fodder again, while the politicians play this game of theirs."
I'm a Nam Vet (69-70) and I'm thoroughly pissed! And Hulk; Welcome Home Brother.
I don't apologize for what I said. I believe it the truth. Until you can prove it isn't.
I did not go to IRAQ, I DO NOT KNOW.
While I have compassion for those who were hoodwinked, sorry, I can't find much sympathy for willing murderers.
Oh, I'm so sorry you've got post-mayhem, rape, destruction, killing children syndrome, or P.M.R.D.K.S.S.
Perhaps you should stop signing up for GW's "war".
Then you can be a real hero.
Maybe Maybe it's the fucking shit that was on the Jet's I worked on that has me fucked up now?
Maybe I got some small particles in my system?
84,
wow
your really a CYBER PSYOP
wonderful how enlightening you are, you just exposed yourself.
America needs a military, it needs national defense. It doesn't need manipulation at the highest levels and bullshit propaganda.
But I take back anything that I say that personally attacks you because you are NOT a public figure.
I welcome your attacks cause I am a public figure (even though small)
What disgraceful crap are we willing to continue to put up with?
C&L should ban me. So should Bradblog and BBV.
and TP. and DRKOS and ... screw it.
If they ban me I might be able to say to myself, that I can no longer change anything. So I might as well fuck things up.
But to be honest, I would rather use it as an excuse to get back into art and music. Without the disruptions.
Without the resentments. disruption = resentment
I am just fucking sick of hearing shit come down from planners that change our reality on a daily basis.
Can't we fucking out guess them? they own the fascist media -- given. But STILL
we HAVE to out guess them to stay ahead and get them out.
part of that is elections, and electronic tabulation devices, and if I burn up ALL my karma, right here, right now; so be it. It needs to be said.
These bastards (Mostly male) are making their fantasy dreams be our reality, they've told us that, they told us they will change it every day!!! HELLO. WAKE , UP.
Time to make them get the fuck out of office. OUt of the pentagon. WHY THE FUCK HELL IS RUMSFIELD STILL AROUND?!?! WHY!
To allow Rumsfield, is to allow OLLY NORTH, to allow Negroponte, to allow DEATH SQUads, TOrture and all shitin nonsense.
I don't even claim to keep tabs on all the shit.
but a lot of security clearances need to be revoked.
A lot of disks need to be crime scenes.
a lot of logs need to be audited.
a lot of logic needs to be compared to the constitution.
you can sit there and say I am some psycho fuck.
but the fact is I did launch jets.