McCain realizes he doesn't like the estate tax after all
By Steve Benen Wednesday Jun 11, 2008 12:40pmRemember the good ol’ days? When John McCain used to occasionally say sensible things and break with his party when they embraced ridiculous policy proposals? Good times, good times.
For example, Republicans have been railing against the existence of the estate tax for years. It’s a foolish gambit for the GOP — they want to cut inheritance taxes for the very wealthy, costing the government billions of dollars in revenue, and they characterize this as a key populist goal.
McCain used to see through this nonsense.
“In his 1906 State of the Union Address, President Theodore Roosevelt proposed the creation of a federal inheritance tax . Roosevelt explained: ‘The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government.’ Additionally, in a 1907 speech he said: ‘Most great civilized countries have an income tax and an inheritance tax. In my judgment both should be part of our system of federal taxation.’ He noted, however, that such taxation should ‘be aimed merely at the inheritance or transmission in their entirety of those fortunes swollen beyond all healthy limits.’
“I agree with President Roosevelt, and I remain opposed to full repeal of the estate tax.”
That is, until he became the Republican presidential nominee. Now, McCain finds the estate tax offensive.
“Another of my disagreements with Senator Obama concerns the estate tax, which he proposes to increase to a top rate of 55 percent. The estate tax is one of the most unfair tax laws on the books, and the first step to reform is to keep it predictable and keep it low. After a lifetime building up a business, and paying taxes on every dollar that business earns, that asset should not be subjected to a confiscatory tax.”
Why, it’s almost as if McCain were some kind of flip-flopper or something. Heaven forbid.
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flip flopping tight wad....as my dad always said..."if you're makin' a wheel barrow full of money you ought to give some of it back to the government".
McCain = Asshat
Teddy said that? Awesome! Another reason to like Teddy.
...
McCain who?
He probably won't get any credit for this from the wingers anyway, since he slipped and referred to it as an "estate tax" instead of a "death tax."
I never understood businessmen who bitch about the estate tax. I mean seriously: they didn't pay any attention to their kids in life, why do they want to give money to them in death?!
Ya hear that Cheney!? Your daughter wants YOUR money!!!
More people need to understand the private corporation that is our Federal Reserve System in America. We pay them money to oversee our economy. There are many good documentaries on the issue...
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford
Let's change that.
Steve, the very wealthy arent invested in the US in any case. They are borderless, but happen to live here. They want to keep their family wealth to be invested anywhere it pleases them in the world.
Its the working class and middle class that are invested in the US via mutual funds and retirement programs.
There are only a few thousand families involved here, so it is needed that the unwashed and uneducated masses do the deed for them.
The dollar is being devalued at an increasingly alarming rate.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise, not from... want of honor and virtue, but from the downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation." -- John Adams
Let's at least try to understand it.
anon is completely correct. It is the middle class that stabilizes our economy. The rich pull their money out the minute things get shaky.
And the Republicans will continue to convince the "fly over" states and "middle America" that this is an attack on *them*, and they will continue to vote Republican, and feel safe and content in their victimhood and poverty. Because hey, at least they didn't raise my tax...
the american pampered class has been burdened too much, it is time to ensure that we have a permanent aristocracy. and one way to do that is to abolish the 'death to your grandmother and kick the puppy tax'.
i say we should also consider asking the working poor and struggling middle class to pay extra in taxes, expect less in wages, and support sending their jobs out of the country, i mean if it helps the upper class then it is good for america.
nothing says equality MORE than extreme economic disparity and stratification.
My fellow countrymen; The best defense is a strong offense.
The argument regarding the Estate, or "Death" Tax is one concocted for common ears whom the tax does not affect. It is the duty of all Americans to stand for truth; here is your opportunity. Engage your compatriots in conversation about this topic. Let them know that the GOP cannot pull this sort of thing off without the support of the multitude comprising the GOP constituency, and that is why they are pandered to. Then let them know the tax does not affect the overwhelming majority of American citizens--the working poor, etc. Make it clear to them that the GOP only wishes to exploit their base's fear of being deprived their due, but that in this case, the only ones who will benefit from repealing the Estate Tax are the already wealthy. In short, preach the gospel, and urge your countrymen and -women to see through the lie.
Now go, and post this far and wide.
TPRA
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government." -- T Roosevelt
William Gates Sr says the same.
displaced @ 5:
The vast majority of the assets held by private parties in this country is inherited. The super rich would rather give it (it meaning every last penny) to their Deliverance offspring than give one penny to the society that allowed them to accrue their obscene fortunes. I'd be happy to eliminate the estate tax if only they were taxed fairly in life.
Cindy McCain is heiress to a huge fortune. Just FYI.
Some years later another Roosevelt spoke up as well...
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Corporations from Halliburton to Blackwater have way too much power over our country and legislators.
Maybe he'll be back to being for it pretty soon. Let's see which way the wind blows.
Truth, Miss Kitty (Nice pussy, mrowl!);
We can no longer make excuses for the rich and super-rich. The nation is crippled by their avarice. If they will not behave in the best interest of the People of this God-Blessed Land, then the People must force them to the point, at a point if need be.
Do not lose hope.
TPRA
anon @ 7:
and the flight of capital is the legacy of the reagan revolution. the supply-siders (with their faithful patrons: bush41 + 43, clinton, greenspan, DLC, GOP, etc.) have freed capital to move wherever labor laws, environmental laws, etc. can be exploited for the enrichment of the very few.
capital is not patriotic. capital doesn't care about america, it only cares about more capital.
That doesn't show a flip-flop. In the first quote he says he's against a "full repeal of the estate tax." In the second quote he says he wants to keep the estate tax "low." Those statements are not at all contradictory. Another C&L post that should have been sent back to the drawing board before getting posted.
Gwen, the estate tax is too low as/is.
TPRA
Samson- @ 18:
Word up, my brotha!
TPRA
Now we do this:
"Fliiip, flooooop! Fliiiip, flooop!", accompanied with a slight, back and forth undulation of our bodies, a swishing motion of one or both hands, glazed eyes and vapid "Gee, I'm At A Big Party!" grins plastered on our faces. Ah, the 2004 GOP convention; what good times! Purple band-aids for all!
Ack, I can't keep it up! The stupid...it burns! How do republicans DO IT?!?!
[motion sick]
Nobody could have predicted that John McCain would abandon the few sensible positions he had to secure the Republican nomination.
Nobody.
"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since
the days of Andrew Jackson..." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
and from the Master...
"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity." - Abraham Lincoln
Samson- @ 11:
I don't know how many people get by these days. Can you imagine how tough it must be working FT at a job that pays about 12 bucks/hr and paying for rent, utilities, food and gas? Theat leaves nothing for any amenities like cable or internet fees. The only thing to do is have roomates and pool resources. It'a just insane!
he's realizing what it feels like to morph into a neocon.........the maverick thing is tired...he wants to belong to neocon club...i hope the public sees these changes there obvious
whether the number of taxpayers the estate tax is going to target is large or small is immaterial, my concern is over unfair taxation. frankly, i'm a bit frightened of rates on anyone going over 50%, especially on monies that have gone through the tax loop already as they were amassed. i'd much rather that the rates during the amassing cycle were raised.
blogenfreude @ 23:
Ah, there's the day's comedy relief.
:)
America, ARISE!
TPRA
sassafra @ 27:
I'll call bullshit and up the ante by stating that super-wealth is created via super-exploitation; thus, the former deserves its reward. Avarice leveled by justice.
TPRA
Samson- @ 18:
How true.
As a note, 'supply side' is nothing more than corporate finance masquerading as economic policy. You can thank Stigler and Friedman for that.
Sound political economic policy is a balance between supply side (labor and productivity) and demand side (consumption). Consumption is really only possible when labor has 'earned disposable income' (EDI) with which to buy manufactured goods. The corporatists wanted to minimize their cost of labor and in the process eliminated EDI. This gave rise to easy credit and negative savings. Which has now resulted in major credit crisis and a hollowed out economy.
You dont have a healthy economy absent BOTH productive labor and compensated labor - EDI.
The presence of corporate finance masquerading as economic policy is evidence of fascism in the US.
sassafra @ 27:
I agree.
Thom Paine Rides Again @ 29:
So the creator of Facebook was only successful through exploitation and deserves to have his things taken away for being "too successful?" Being rich doesn't mean you're evil or earned the money in a criminal way.
McInsane's argument that a business might be lost because the family could not pay an estate tax is stupid. Any businessman worth his salt, who wants his family to retain the business, would set up a system whereby the taxes are covered at the time of the owner's death.
I believe many wealthy people just don't give a crap what family members will have to do fighting over money, or even want their heirs to confront each other. Some sort of perverse love I think.
Orangutan. @ 31:
I earn a dollar and am taxed. I give that dollar to you, and you are unfairly taxed as that dollar had previously been taxed. Is that your argument?
Money you give your children are seen as income just as surely as if you had hired your kids and payed them a wage. Or would you argue that your kids shouldnt pay tax on income from wages you pay them as you have already been taxed on those dollars?
The tax codes in the '30s involved tax rates at about 4% up to about a million dollars. Income in excess of a million was taxed at over 60%. (Thats about 3 million in todays dollars taxed at the lower rate and monies over 3 million taxed at 60%)
People with great wealth - apparently not you - benefit disproportionately more than the average and hence should pay more on excessive wealth in compensation for their benefit.
They are still wealthy, but they are meeting a moral obligation by paying their share based on accrued benefit.
Theguy @ 32:
I'm not addressing IT/IS. I'm addressing the wealth created on the backs of American Industry workers and related. Trades, etc. Not computer geeks. Nothing against the latter, of course.
TPRA
Theguy @ 32:
'Too successful' is only possible in a context he didnt create. The founder of facebook (the main one) isnt self made. He should pay for having benefitted from something not his creation - that infrastructure ... civil society. Otherwise he is disproportionately benefiting from something funded by others without paying proportionate compensation himself. That is theft.
As a note - he is a thug.
Orangutan. @ 31:
i also agree....i find it somewhat amusing that anyone believes that democrats enjoy unfair taxes..taxes at all.i recently moved out west i've talked to a few professional people that tell me entitlement,human services and other resources are swelling with people who can't pay one of the demographics is illegal immigrants..that corporations want for lower wages and no benefits...so they use the system they can't for all of do some how...my auto ins. doubled why uninsured motorists agent told me...this is also an unfair tax...the system needs income..not fair but we all have to pay some how
Saint Augustine @ 33:
The estate tax was never requested by anyone who might be effected by it. It's a political wedge issue drudged up 1st by right wing talk radio and championed by Newt Gingrich as the "Death Tax" as part of his contract on America..
displaced @ 5:
I hope she spends it all on lesbian hookers. Is there such a thing? If not, there should be.
The Topic was CROOKS and LIARS< Is Dick Cheney here? Hello? George? any one....Any one from Haliburton here??......Enron?
Theguy @ 32:
Yeah, but we're talking about estate tax here. The creator of Facebook won't have his things taken away. It's his children who did nothing to earn that wealth who will be collecting the profits for years to come? Shouldn't America be about encouraging self-reliance and independence?
There would be less Cindy McCains in the world if we make the estate tax squeeze the rich tighter. (Less Teresa Heinz-Kerrys too.)
Tekras @ 38:
The estate tax was suggested by Teddy Roosevelt - a republican and very rich.
In his 1906 State of the Union Address, President Theodore Roosevelt proposed the creation of a federal inheritance tax . Roosevelt explained: ‘The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government.’
“I agree with President Roosevelt, and I remain opposed to full repeal of the estate tax.”
For modern Republicans to pride themselves on being part of the party of Roosevelt and Lincoln is something like George Jefferson proclaiming how proud he is to be part of the family that spawned Thomas and his Declaration of Independence. Same name, no relation.
It hardly seems like a flip-flop to me. He said he opposed a full repeal of the estate tax and now he says he feels it should be kept low. These seem like very consistent points of view.
McCain is 'flip-flopping' on almost everything. But those of us that oppose his potential presidency risk making real concerns about his frequent policy changes seem like nothing but partisan noise with criticisms such as this.
anon @ 42:
bingo.....how about the corporations with great wealth owes.......................derives special advantages like illegal immigration a cheap work force that use human services that many don't pay for
Thom Paine Rides Again @ 20:
I suspect that is true, but that still doesn't make it a flip flop for McCain to say first that he wants to keep the estate tax, and later say he wants to keep it low. If he's wrong on the issue, just say that. But calling every nuanced position a "flip flop" is EXACTLY THE BULLSHIT THE RIGHT PULLED ON JOHN KERRY, remember? That's disingenuous politics.
karl @ 45:
I'll wager the small-biz/private contractor benefits most from use of undocumented labor.
TPRA
Thom Paine Rides Again @ 47:
nailed it. you are batting 1000 TPRA
Flip-flopper McBush.
Samson- @ 48:
I don't fuck around. Not bad for a guy with a highschool education and access to a good library, right?
Honestly, so much of what ails us a nation, a people, comes down to laziness and common sense (or lack thereof). Cancer in the managerial/leadership ranks has gone unabated. It's about to get nipped.
TPRA
Thom Paine Rides Again @ 47:
could be the largest poultry producer got hurt when it was discovered it's work force was dominated by illegal immigrants...all i'm saying there is hidden taxes because of this...they don't purchase auto ins. for example so that cost transferred to consumer maybe your right yesterday large business today small business...the gov. and corporations/k-street turn their back on it and many of us pay for it..any many f those small business belong to large associations that represent them
Thom Paine Rides Again @ 17:
Thanks for the erm-compliment. But Wm Gates Sr and a host of other mega billionaires are PRO inheritance tax.
Long Live the Estate Tax!
By Bill Gates Sr. & Chuck Collins
This article appeared in the January 27, 2003 edition of The Nation.
January 9, 2003
"...Today, the estate tax affects less than 2 percent of the richest households, those with wealth exceeding $1 million..."
Statement of William H. Gates, Sr.
June 12, 2002
"...It is not punishment to repay your government for having had the benefit of living in this country..."
Ok, McCain sucks balls, but please let's not be dishonest here.
McCain said he was not in favor of fully repealing the estate tax. To me that sounds like he's not opposed to its existence but that he would like to keep it relatively low. So when he says that he wants to keep the estate tax low as opposed to 55%, that sounds pretty consistent to me.
There is plenty to criticize McCain on. This ain't something.
karl @ 51:
My dear white-supremacist, if you think undocumented workers are hurting us even a c*nthair as badly as rich white men who just dumped trillions down the claptrap sewer that is Iraq, you really need to rethink things. Please don't place the brown-fear card around me. It's a bullshit argument, through and through. Here's a link for you...run along, now.
TPRA
maybe i will have better luck today, on this thread, to ask again:
serious question:
what of a family of 8 adults whose trust/LLC is around $3 million - investments, assets, cash…
how much has dubya’s tax cuts helped them? and what effect will ending those cuts have?
it seems to me that 3mil is not a sufficient amount to have much benefit.
say, if one sibling wanted to be bought out at 300k - would that tax be much different next year?
or in 2011? the sibling in charge, a repug, says “do it now - the dems will raise the taxes.”
thanks for any help and/or opinions!
McSideshow will be totally shit out of luck come November.
I guess that the fascist candidate can't win all the time.
Lying flip flopper. Disgusting piece of dog shit. he probably forgot he was for it before he was against it.
unfair tax....taxes.......the gop's favorite carrot/battle cry....they want to spend but not pay for the new credi culture or get rich using other peoples money infomercial....i'm a democrat and that doesn't mean i like taxes but i've seen what you get without the appropriate tax base in a community...crime,inferior infrastructure,less human services,low high school graduation rates,higher cost transferred to services...so burden transferred to public fairly not sure......there is plenty of hidden taxation...the market isn't perfect neither is taxation somebody will always cry foul
My 2nd wife's father objected to our marrying because I had two children from my first marriage. He was a man who live with his wife's parents and inherited their home, When he parents died he got their house. His objection to me was that after his and his wife's death, since their daughter was an only child she would inherit all they have. Then, IF me and my wife were in an accident and she died I would get everything of hers and if I died shortly thereafter then my two children by my first wife would get everything he had worked for and it would be out of his family.
I laughed in his face and said I could care less about his wealth, and suggested he not worry about where his wealth would be two generations after his death. I added that if he was so worried about his money he could draw up a will and control where his money would.
I concluded by telling him that since his daughter and I were planning to have children of our own that his first grandchild should give him great happiness.
Our daughter was born 5 years later and she'll get it all when her mom (my 2nd ex now) dies.
He was for it, before he was against it.
CannibalPlanet @ 9:
Which is why my IRA and 401-K are in the shitter.
the necessary evil.. nobody likes unfair taxation..nobody wants the burden of unfair taxation..... like life the market isn't perfect..trust me there is plenty of unfair taxation transferred to consumers....what about unfair spending....you know you are 2000-2006
people without health ins. use the system can't paid transferred to consumer....auto ins. becomes a mandate in some states if not cost would be unreasonable hey i don't want mandates but people want to use other people money
sassafra @ 27:
How's that money sitting in offshore accounts being taxed?
If a job was offered to you that paid $20 million/year except that it came with a precondition that you had to pay a tax rate of 50% would you turn this job down?
Fuck NO you wouldn't! No rational person would!
What if you were offered a 20 million dollar inheritance taxed at 50%, would you turn it down because of the tax rate?
I would be happy if I were trapped in that tax bracket.
I would gladly pay the taxes.
I would have a fleet of SUV's that got only 2 mpg.
Hell, I take all my $$$ and invest in oil and profit like hell off all you sad sack poor people.
WTF would I care, I'd have mine.
I'd sit and play games of fuck you budy all day!
Dr. Acula @ 60:
which is also very ironic, since the rise of the middle class was used as a buffer and a safeguard to the upper class' hegemony.
It isn't a flip-flop.
McCain doesn't advocate total repeal of the estate tax in either quote.
what a republican hears....blah blah blah....cut taxes..blah blah blah...cut taxes...blah.....even if it doesn't help them even it's likely to hurt/cost them..it's another divider and certain people buy into it literally.....ask a sain democrat if they like unfair taxation...no taxes you get deadwood
The estate tax is designed and intended to prevent the rise of a monied aristocracy peopled by those who have earned nothing or ever achieved anything of merit by their own efforts. It is designed to prevent the rise of a class of privileged elites who end up doing nothing but parasitizing society and parasitizing the wealth of society, as does the Bush Crime Family. It is designed to prevent the wealth of nation being concentrated over the generations into the hands of the very few.
They GOPer's should be lucky I'm not the philosopher king. The highest tax rates would be much higher than 55%.
No amount of taxes can dig us out of the hole we are in.
$9 trillion national debt? How the hell is that going to be paid off?
Actually, I authorized none of that debt. I signed no contract, therefore I am liable for zero percent of that debt.
The politicians that got us into that debt should pay it off themselves.
I really don't understand why you are so hard on McCain. All he is saying is that he has no principals, no morals and no scruples. He is willing to blow anyone or take it up the ass as long as he gets to be President.
does our government really deserve MORE money from us?
it seems to me that we should, as taxpayers, be cutting them off until they are willing to stop waging illegal wars, torturing people, policing the globe, bailing out banks and lenders, paying for no bid contracts, and neglecting the us military stuck in afghanistan and iraq. not to mention ignoring the will of the people on such matters.
until the federal government proves itself at least somewhat trustworthy/responsible with it's spending habits, i say no way, no how. not with my money, not in my name.
the powers that be need to understand that they need us a hell of a lot more than we need them.
Paul @ 68:
Here here! The estate tax was made to avoid the problem of the landed gentry. And I'm with you, leave it to me I'll tax the rich until they choke. Then they'll really be able to bitch about class warfare.
gwen, Bill, wheyghey, and Eric Jaffa are right here. this blog post was off.
as for the Facebook creator, he and his descendants should be taxed through the nose, if only because his product is silly crap.
Brulante @ 4:
I caught that too.
Out of all the koolaid drinkers in this thread only 71 Dr. Girlfriend made any sense!
Something that the Republicans don't want to talk about is the $1,000,000.00 threshold that needs to be met in order to trigger any estate tax.
Yes, you read that right a 1 with 6 zeros behind it. Now, how many of you reading this board are looking to inherit or bequeath more than that?
If this little tid-bit got more press coverage, they would have a much harder time is selling this ELITIST tax break.
My father dedicated 40 years of his working life to our family business (a hard rock quarry & road construction company). He
provided good paying jobs to a couple of hundred people and paid for college educations for his employees children. He paid taxes - lots of them - every year. My father didn't inherit his wealth, every dollar he made was through his own sweat and hard work.
My dad's main concern during the last 10 or 15 years of his life was that the business continue after he retired. To that end, he
started his kids working in the business as teenagers and encouraged (pestered us - harangued us, actually) us to choose college
majors that would be useful in the family business. I pursued a civil engineering degree and followed that up with an MBA. My brother
and sister graduated with engineering and business degrees respectively. There were quite a number of second generation employees
working in the company as well - at least half a dozen whose secondary educations were paid for by my dad.
It all came crashing down after my dad died. We had to give up all the cash that was in the business as well as mortgaging the assets
of the business to pay the costs of settling our parents estate. What had been a healthy company was transformed overnight into
a sickly business, barely able to meet payroll. All it took to bankrupt us was to miss out on winning a single contract.
Less then 18 months after my dad died, his dream died also. As did 200 paying jobs and a business that paid several million
dollars annually in taxes.
All you people that think estate taxes are good; that they serve some noble purpose in preventing wealth from being concentrated
in too few hands, you are sadly misinformed. The ultra-rich: the Gates's, Buffet's, Rockefellers and Waltons will pay minimal, if any estate taxes - if they choose - since they can shift assets into trusts or move them overseas... well beyond the reach of the IRS. Middle class families (or those somewhat above middle class) whose wealth is tied to a family business will find themselves treated maliciously by the tax code.
Well Mr. Alan Ball, you are the MBA, did you not see that coming? Have you no financial advisors or tax consultants? Could it be that the family is too involved with the day-to-day operation of the business with noone looking at the long tern possibilities? I don't know what's more appropiate now, is it Shit H