Rick Warren, what a guy!
By John Amato Wednesday Jul 23, 2008 6:00pmRick Warren snagged Obama and McCain to attend a leadership and compassion forum in CA:
Democratic Sen. Barack Obama and Republican Sen. John McCain in August will be on the same stage for the first time in the 2008 presidential campaign. The Rev. Rick Warren has invited them to appear at a leadership and compassion forum in his Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, on August 16. Warren, the author of the best-selling book "The Purpose Driven Life" spoke with CNN's Wolf Blitzer by phone Tuesday from Sao Paulo, Brazil.
That Rick Warren sure is a moderate thinking preacher who doesn't identify with the reigious right, or does he?
Dr [Rick] Warren said that homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right. "We shall not tolerate this aspect at all," Dr Warren said.
Warren was speaking in support of Ugandan Anglicans who intend to boycott the forthcoming Lambeth Conference, and this harsh rejection of tolerance for gays and lesbians may have serious consequences in a country where homosexuals face harrassment and and the threat of imprisonment.
Warren's comment is of a piece with his support for Martin Ssempa, the Ugandan evangelist who has been a keynote speaker at a Warren conference, and who has received US global AIDS prevention funds. As I wrote in August, Ssempa wants to ensure that homosexuality remains illegal and that gays and lesbians are identified in the public mind as sexual abusers.
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Don't ask, don't tell, and for godsakes, don't show up. Has there been mention here at C&L of yesterday's hearing on Don't Ask Don't Tell? There were some amazingly eloquent speechifying going on in support of gay rights, including republican Chris Shays. And there was some mind-numbingly intolerance and misinformation on the part of the witnesses speaking against it.
Religion is not a natural way of life and hence not a human right.
Buffy emailed me today. She thinks that if Obama was a Slayer, he would have a Vampire for a girlfriend. Which I translate into
her thinking Obama will stand on any stage, anywhere, anytime, with anyone...that means he is either a whore, or he wants to r r
each as many people he can by any means. Even if he gets a little blood on his shirt.
There's not a damn thing wrong with being gay. There is something a little fucked up about believing in an imaginary sky fairy that tells you to hate people.
This fits in well with earlier comments on another thread about the separation of church and state. What business does Rick Warren have in sponsoring any type of political debate.
Warren may not identify with the religious right, but he is indeed a member.
Nada @ 4:
my spaghetti monster is no fairy!
The right wing is homophobic? When did this happen?
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 6:
Beg pardon :D Sky fairies are also missing the "noodly appendage". Very important.
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 6:
The FLYING spaghetti monster mind you!
Thomas @ 7:
Whenever the insane desert dwelling Semites wrote Leviticus!
Its a mistake for Obama to go to this forum. These are closed-minded people. Orange County's finest republicans. They just like the touchy-feely atmosphere that Rick Warren pretends to have. No there Obama.
Move on people, nothing to see here. @ 11:
It would be blatant pandering.
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 6:
CoIntelPro is clearly referring to the homophobic magical winged sky fairy deity of the Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists.
The FSM doesn't tell you to hate anyone; in fact, the homophobia and gay bashing of the Christian Right violates 7 of the 8 "I'd really rather you didn'ts".
Move on people, nothing to see here. @ 11:
He should go there and wherever else there are potential votes. He doesn't have to pander when he goes there - just deliver his message. I don't know anything about Warren's politics - and am not a believer of any sort - but Warren's book is popular with many, many liberals and moderates. You don't just give those votes up to the other side.
Religion is good for them because it's tax free!
Other than that...
Why would Obama agree to this? He's in a position to set the terms and he wants his first time sharing the stage with McCain to be moderated by a conservative pastor? We'll see...
There needs to be a separation of church and state. Period.
I didn't know anything about Warren, then one night I was browsing through some of the videos on TED and came across this one. What can I say, but the guy creeps me out, and I'd say chances are good that he'll try and sucker-punch Obama.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/rick_warren_on_a_life_of_purpose.html
In order to wash the taste out of your mouth here's Daniel Dennett's response to Rick Warren's talk...
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_warren...
And just for the hell of it, one of my favorites from TED -- oceanographer David Gallo, with a short five minute piece on some of the amazing stuff he's filmed. *** Stick around to the end of the video for one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/david_gallo_shows_underwater_astonish...
Just another jerk with a special purpose driving his life...
[Deleted. Sitemonitor]
David Ehrenstein, that's pretty f*&*-up man.
I think is totally appropriate that two religious fruitcakes are hosted by another religious fruitcake.
Commentator @ 13:
wrong! My spaghetti monster, which does indeed fly, cares not about gender preferences. It only cares about meat, marinara, mushrooms, onion, oregano, basil, plum tomatoes, grated parmesan cheese and taste buds.
Now on a more sane comment.
Unfortunately the polls are a lot closer than they should be and Obama has to do what he can to win and I don't begrudge him for that.
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 23:
Should read: Nada is clearly referring to the homophobic magical winged sky fairy deity of the Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists.
Rick Warren, who worships the same angry, hate-filled god, violates all 8 "I'd really rather you didn'ts".
The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
richard @ 14:
Lets just wait and see. There are no undecided votes there. Its more than a waste of time. Trust me on this one.
Kilgore Trout @ 24:
Have you wondered why Obama's poll number went down after he started doing whatever he "has to do to win"? Could it be that becoming more like McCain makes his poll numbers more like McCain?
So that's it then, eh? The Repimplican jeezofascist solution to the problems of the day: hate 10% of the population of the world for being the way that their genetics dictate. I'm speechless.
CMINCA @ 5:
The separation of church and state would specifically give Rick Warren the right to sponsor this type of political debate. It seems to me like people have perverse the separation to include any interaction between the two, just like the NRA has perverse the 2nd amendment to give them the right to any gun anywhere. I look at the separation more as the state should not be in the business of regulating religious thinking, and should not suppress religious thought.
. . . homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right.
Yes, for we all know, "natural" is the sole determining criterion for whether something is both good, and a human right.
When a natural tornado is in the vicinity of human-made houses, decent people root for the tornado from the safety of caves.
When a natural disease plagues a society, decent people prevent access to human-designed medicines.
Decent people wear leaves or nothing at all, but certainly not human-made cloth.
Decent people bar heathens from everything unnatural, for such is not their human right.
That's what decent people do!
Say, can we get Rick Warren a Porpoise Driven Live? There are some really smart dolphins whom we could train to take him out to sea until he agrees to shut the fuck up.
JimboSlice @ 30:
I would add that the state should not endorse any religion, directly or indirectly, by its actions. But indeed, religious people should not be barred from sponsoring debate. That would violate the separation concept, not fulfill it.
I'd gab a bit about the Second Amendment, but it's too tangential. :)
has everyone gone over to obama's website and sent him a note?
i did.
rick warren is a dangerous lunatic attempting to gain legitimacy through "involvement" in the presidential race. i can certainly understand mccain going along with him, but i can only assume that obama's "people" didn't vet this gig thoroughly.
send mail to obama and suggest he find something else to do on august 16th.
and as always, be polite.
If there is any sexual abuse going on it is in the heart and minds of the intolerant bigots who would make homosexuality a crime, a sin, or both.
I will not support a candidate who caters to this mindset. I draw my line in the sand.
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. - Thomas Jefferson
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. - James Madison
I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. — Thomas Jefferson
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. - Thomas Paine
The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the calibre of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites. - Thomas Jefferson
I find it incredible that most Americans don't realize that those that laid the foundations of this great nation knew full well about the bigotry, hate and intolerance of religion and christianity. They warned us as to what would happen if we let this venom blind us and take over our government ... the last eight years have proven our forefathers correct; this period under George W Bush, a christian, will be forever noted as the most destructive, disgraceful and blackest era in our history. Hate and war is not a natural endowment of man ... it is taught from the church pulpit.
It's sad that Senator Obama has consistently refused to debate science, but is more than willing to talk about religion.
See here: http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4622908
In any case, he lost my vote with his vote for the FISA bill.
I can't recall at the moment what he said, but there were a couple of other things that came out of his mouth, they gave me pause. If anything, he's middle-right.
Hmm...
I find it interesting that whenever any religion gets its paws on any government, mass mayhem and death ensue. Looking at Islam in the Indian subcontinent, the Medieval Christendom, the Aztec ritual sacrifices to Huitzilopochtli, the genocides of Massachutsetts Bay and Jamestown, Japan's rampage in the 30s and 40s under the auspices of State Shinto...
Well, I think that the best solution for all concerned would be to disestablish all religions, or else we die in nuclear fire.
EuroRant @ 34:
Religious hatred isn't only Christian. Muslims were genocidal in the Indian subcontinent, the Han repeatedly destroyed tribal religions to replace them with the Chinese three, then Japan sliced ribbons into East Asia for Amatesaru and Susanoo, while the pre-Christian Europeans would use Zeus or Chernobog or Thor or Taranis to strike against their enemies for not worshiping their gods. Either disestablish all religions, globally, or we die in nuclear fire.
Another great follower of Jesus following the commandment to "Go forth and hate people that you never met, in my name."
Having several pace-makers is not a natural way of life, either. But that hasn't stopped Cheney.
Homosexuality feels pretty natural to me. If it doesn't feel natural for you, you're doing it wrong.
Andy D. @ 35:
put some thought into it between now and november, andy. think about a mccain administration. examine mccain's record, really think hard if you would rather have that than obama, despite his imperfections (and i'm not saying that his fisa vote didn't blister me).
here's the link. sit down with a beverage and watch the entirety of his speech. listen to his speech. consider it. ask yourself, do i see america in the same way as this man.
obama is not the second coming. he is a politician. that being said, that's how the world works, that's how it's designed to work. politicians run things. that's their job.
obama is now, at this time, the single best hope any of us have of turning things around.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/berlinvideo/
Look up R. Warrens connection to the video game "Left Behind. ---Forces. " You know, the video game where you shoot muslems, and proclaim"Praise the Lord"
While I think that this is a risky move on Obama's part, it's a necessary--and, ultimately, inevitable--risk. Going into a situation like that, where the deck is pretty clearly stacked against him, could be the political coup that puts him over the top. He's taking on McCain in McCain's (grudgingly) adopted turf. If Obama loses, well, it was pretty obvious that the deck was stacked against him. Not unlike choosing to play Black in chess (No pun intended.) In that scenario, it's merely losing a calculated bet. But certainly *not* any lack of courage. But...if he takes on McCain--when McCain has the home field advantage--and actually comes out looking better (to anyone but the Kool-Aid snorting twenty-and-change percenters), it's more or less a coup de grace. (And, frankly, I would not be surprised to see those on the right still capable of long-term thinking breathe a sigh of relief.)
Then, too, you have to view this through the lens of a believer (rather than an agnostic like myself). Two distinctly different flavors of Christianity are going head-to-head, mano a mano here. Oversimplifying things, it's the Old Testament (of the angry, punishing, capricious God) vs. the New Testament ("Jesus loves the little children" touchy-feely) version. The bat$#!+ wankers on the right like to characterize the battle for America's soul in terms of True Believers vs. Everyone Else. Their problem is that they're far, far too stuck on themselves to recognize that someone who believes in God doesn't automatically become a hater who unthinkingly accepts the perversion that's been made of both conservatism and Christianity. No, I think it's pretty clear that there's a quiet revolution going on inside Christianity right now. And if the Obama-McCain "debate" shows up the fissures, it can't be anything but good for the world.
Just my proverbial two-cents. I still don't like giving any of these would-be kingmaking god-botherers the time of day. Then again, only Nixon could go to China...
Religion is for those who can't think for themselves.
This is the scariest part of Obama--his love of a barefooted hippy in the sky.
What a sham.
Oh, but all his sick moderating is just him "playing politics", right? Let's give him a pass because he's the "best chance we've got"?
BULL!
So many fell in love with his snake oil sales routine because they believed he held the promise of a new way, a change in the way political campaigns and countries are run. You were duped. He's a religious, saber-rattlin', coal/nuke-lovin' freak just like McCain. In fact, on the environment, I'd trust McCain MORE! How sad is that?!
Pat @ 42:
Uh, the game has believers kill nonbelievers of all types. Not just muslims.
Mark Carver, an executive in Warren's church, was on this game's advisory board.
The name of that video game is Left Behind, Eternal Forces.
Look it up. You wont believe it.
Rewarding Christian kids for killing non christians.
Please Obama Don't associate your self with that muderous scum.
Of course in the name of religion.
I guess we now have IOKIYABC (bigoted Christian).
Obama wants nothing to do with MoveOn, and the ACLU, but has no problem associating with this bigot?
Jim @ 44:
Clueless.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html
Jim @ 44:
Get a clue.
www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html
Karen @ 30:
That's all very entertaining, but um..... homosexuality IS NATURAL!! Homosexuality, bi-sexuality and heterosexuality occur naturally, in nature, in just about every type of species on earth!!
So is God creating animals that sin?
or is your religious obsession wrong?
WHo you gonna believe?
Your lying eyes or your interpretation of some old book?
Move on people, nothing to see here. @ 26:
Wrong. There are many evangelicals on the fence. I've already convinced several people to reconsider their support for McCain.
On the other hand undecided evangelical voters are unlikely to be swayed to vote for Obama by the insulting anti-Christian posts/comments on this site. ;)
peaceful easy feeling @ 51:
Anti-Christian, or anti-Christian-bigots? For every Christian bigot who laughs in his face about the pandering and then votes for McCain, there will be many liberal secularists, homosexuals and liberal Christians who are deeply offended by Obama's attempted normalization of and/or catering to Warren's bigoted views.
Kilgore Trout @ 23:
As A young one growing up in EU, I learned that Homosexuality was a gene defect.
When I came here in the mid 60’s, Ann Landers was telling everyone that it was MAMA’s fault.
Any educated person should know that it is a lie. And any leader preaching a different message are only doing it for the money that they are collecting from the people who can least afford it.
holy shit, I'm in germany flying home to california and lake forest is my home town, that church is about a 10-minute jog from my parents' house, too bad I'll be in Nicaragua then! :)
peaceful easy feeling @ 52:
Yeah, god forbid we offend those poor ignorant bigot evangelicals.
JimboSlice @ 30:
I think you are misunderstanding separation of church and state with freedom of expression.
peaceful easy feeling @ 50:
Here is your 2 by 4:
http://richarddawkins.net/
karen marie @ 42:
Which is the sad part, we have devolved so much as a society that we would take just about anything over a McCain presidency.
If this country had a shred of self respect, "not as bad as McCain" would be considered pathetic. Then again, if we had any sort of class, education, and overall medium standards as a civilization... a dope like McCain would have been laughed out of town the first time he ran for senate.
Some of us are simply tired of this shit. Yeah, after FISA I am pretty much thinking that I have better things to do in November than to spend time in line to vote for Obama. He sure had better things to do than defend our constitution it seems. And no, I will not be responsible for a McCain presidency, that blame lies on the people who will vote for him, OK?
Oh, and one last comment. It pisses me to not end that religious degrees get the title of "Doctor."
Yeah, I had to earn my PhD the old fashioned way, and it will be a cold day in hell before I extend the same level of achievement to any superstition peddler.
Seems like the only ignorant people are the ones writing these messages. I'm a left-wing, liberal Christian, somewhat skeptical of Rick Warren as with most "popstar" type Christian personalities (specifically, he's way too into marketing and selling products, whatever the intended good).
BUT his book has meant a lot to a lot of people, some would say changed their lives for the better. And so I wonder how many people on here have read it? Not many I think. The last 57 messages are some of the most hate-filled garbage I've read in a while on this site. Seems there's just as many left-wing fundamentalist nut-jobs as there are right wing ones, and hating Christians or any other people of a faith doesn't make any sense when you're smearing them for hating other people. Two wrongs don't make a right, no?
The Dude @ 59:
Yeah, if you read any of Naomi Klein, you will see she definitely thinks Barack is a lesser of two evils, but definitely anything is better than McCain. In Europe, where they have way more progressive policies, Barack would be considered centre-right, and McCain a fascist! (Read that somewhere this week).
dave @ 62:
I agree that McC is a fascist.
I'd also point out that Obama voting to give the telecoms immunity ->placing corporate powers above the law<- is the definition of fascism.
Pat @ 47:
And how is this fundamentally different than any other shoot-em-up video game?
Dear Rick,
Intolerance and prejudice are not natural and not a human right either. Cloaking these sins in the mantle of "religion" does not legitimize them and degrades the spiritual values that you are supposed to represent. Too bad that people actually support such a thing but I guess there are dupes in every age that will fall for anything people like you say. It sure beats thinking.
Of course, you aren't the first person that thought using a little hypocrisy in the name of spirituality was perfectly OK. So do us a favor. Spare us your righteousness and judgment and go peddle your hoax of a religion elsewhere. Uganda might be a good place to start. Just don't come back please.
Or better yet, clean up your act by adopting spiritual principles that are actually consistent with Jesus' teachings.
Sincerely,
The Public
dave @ 61:
Another rare voice of reason and tolerance in this thread. :) Yes, be they on the left or right, the fringes are quite the haven for fundamentalists and supremacists.
Did you know that Rev. Warren tithes in reverse? Yes, that's correct, he keeps 10% and gives 90% away.
He's also leading an effort to mobilize thousands of churches to fight hunger and poverty.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1809833,00.html
Otay @ 46:
Rick "Anything for a Buck" Warren has his hands in a lot of pies, as long as the outcome is more money for himself (through Saddleback of course). I've read his book - most of the folks I know in my church have read his book. Then we got together and talked about the great amount of bullshit it contains.
Warren hates gays as badly as he hates "infidels". He justifies this hate by using the name of God; God hates them so I should too. It seems, however, that Warren has skipped a lot of the Bible he claims to know so well. Like all of the parts about idolatry (a sin God ranks equal with homosexuality, adultery, lying and stealing), and how even money can be considered an idol? I do wonder how much he reflects on that when he is sitting in his vacation home?
As to the church/state separation discussion above, I do not feel that any church has the right or duty to sponsor a political debate at any level. Even if they treat both candidates equally it simply opens the doorway for a particular church or denomination to 'endorse' a particular candidate or party. They are not supposed to do this from the pulpit and most don't... but don't fool yourself by thinking it doesn't happen. Emails are sent, hints dropped and discussions arise in the parking lot. A debate makes it easier for a mega-church to drop hints to the membership afterwards.
I saw him a while back on some daytimer. My impression was a message, carefully crafted but quite conservative.
peaceful easy feeling @ 66:
Don't buy the snake oil. He tithes in 'reverse' to demonstrate his prosperity principle - give willingly no matter what and the Lord will bless you tenfold. His 90% that he 'tithes' is from his salary from the church and that is peanuts compared to what he makes with the books, lectures and videos. Peanuts. As to his 'mobilization' of churches to work on social issues, well, do you REALLY think these people would allow a church that openly tolerates gays to join their efforts? Many of those churches are affiliated with Saddleback to begin with....
peaceful easy feeling @ 64:
Exactly.
CMINCA @ 12:
Bear in mind this isn't the first time Obama's been on Rick Warren's stage. Back in 2006 he was at his church speaking on AIDS/HIV. That caused quite the uproar for the churchys. Warren's no fool though. After Ted Haggard went down in flames as the head of the NAE (all puns intended) Rick Warren knows he's heir apparent and is cultivating that same relationship Ted had with Bush with the 'future' president. Warren is tilling the fields here. The only rival he has is Dobson (and maybe Joel Osteen) and he's far too partisan to play to host for Obama.
peaceful easy feeling @ 64:
Making an excuse for videogames which encourage ethnic and religious cleansing doesn't show your argument in a favorable light. But it is in line with some of that old-fashioned fundamentalist right-wing Christianity.
Gretchen @ 69:
It appears you are getting inaccurate information from somewhere. Saddleback does not preach the "health and wealth" gospel. My understanding is the Warrens tithe 90% of their total income, which no longer includes a salary from the church. In fact they have used the proceeds from book sales to reimburse the church for all salaries paid over the years. In regards to gays in the church, you are clearly confusing tolerance with endorsement.
Otay @ 72:
Except that I wasn't making any excuses for the game. Pretty much every one of these games appeals to some twist on "morality" to justify the "good guys" killing the "bad guys." Singling out a game with a "Christian theme" only serves to reveal your intolerance.
More on Rick Warren.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/22/lkl.01.html
peaceful easy feeling @ 74:
"Singling out a game"? I'm singling out a hateful bigot. We are talking about the head of a group of powerful "Christians" with an agenda and a desire to inflame violent passions against those who don't believe what they believe. By encouraging kids (and soldiers in Iraq whom they gave copies of the game to) to kill them off.
If you think that is "Christian", I don't know what to tell you.
Who's "intolerant" here?