Countdown: Welcome Home
By Nicole Belle Thursday Nov 15, 2007 11:00am
Download | play Download | play (h/t Heather)
I defy you to watch this and not be moved. And as he does so often, Keith Olbermann zeros in on exactly what should be meant by the phrase "supporting the troops."
To speak of supporting the troops and not understand that the only true way to enact that support is to make sure that kind of homecoming is what each of them and their families have earned is to reduce that support to a saying on a bumper sticker, to making it a meaningless brand name. Supporting the troops is supporting 1st Lt. Thomas Bourne, and supporting Amy Bourne and supporting Walker Bourne and supporting Preston Bourne. Supporting them is not making those two little boys have to cry again. It is not thumping a chest and waving a flag and threatening a dissenter. It is not what the Army Reserve is doing to Thomas Bourne and thousands more like him: sending him after his two weeks' leave is up...back to Iraq.
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"But... but... they volunteered!"
/conservative
Please do not associate my name with Susan Newton.
Thank you
The Amazing Tarquin
Just to play devil's advocate, he pays well, if we're "winning the war in Iraq," why are they inisisting that they troops stay in that litter box?
Bring them all home NOW! Impeach Cheney and Bush and send them to the Hague.
Like tears in rain...
"You think you’re righteous, tell it to them
Draped flags are comin’ home silently again
Mothers are cryin’, when will it end?
The sons and daughters of the Hill they won’t
send
The people’s shoutin’ fell on deaf ears
Your moral values caused millions of tears
Why oh Why oh Why
Why oh Why oh Why
Why oh Why oh Why
Why did you lie?"
--Wackiavelli
Booze consumption is at record highs.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
I'll drink to that!
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Creating numb sculls.
That video made me cry.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Do you blame them? Hell if I had to go through that the ONLY thing that would sober me up would be my kids. And I don't have kids, don't want any because I see what this world is. Booze is the least of the problem. They need medical care frequently, which they are of course not getting. "Support our troops there so we don't have to support them here."
Marc @ 9:
I was referring to the perpetrators of the war, i.e. Cheney
Only crooks and cowards hide behind the "Support Our Troops" line. Everyone supports them-- it's the corrupt policies of BushCo, the cabal that ducks for cover behind the troops at every turn, which America does not support. Using the troops as their own personal body armor only makes obvious their total contempt for both truth and justice.
truth is, little overpampered Lord Puss N' Boots wouldn't know actual justice, or troop support, if it bit him in the ass. With a little luck, someday it will.
Limbaugh: "The phony soldiers sons!"
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Well how else are ya gonna get high?
like a hungry baby, like a hungry baby.
Mindfire13 @ 5:
Sounds like the title of a country and western song like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO4EqxK-UQA
"Return on success," is nothing less than bullshit.
We've consistently been told that we're making progress, we're winning, etc. - but the truth is that we've called up seven more brigades while making plans to bring home one. Conservatives habitually complain that liberals are disrespecting the troops, their families, and their 'sacrifice' - when the truth is that we have overworked soldiers sent into the field with shoddy kit, we're cutting health benefits that are already sliced thin, their families live off food coupons and struggle to make house payments.
But the leaders who sent them there, in addition to most never having served, live a privileged life with six-figure salaries, as do private contractors under the aegis of Blackwater USA.
Go figure.
That had me crying.
Every time I hear the phrase "support the troops", I cringe.
ysbaddaden @ 15:
I don't know people will invent some way to numb down. Now booze isn't a high anyway. It's a good fix to help loose your inhibitions. Thats it's main attraction.
The price of that though is you loose your good judgment, hearing, vision, and just about everything else.
Whatever helps you get through the day I guess.
Jo @ 4:
don't forget to torture them along the way.
please don't forget to torture them along the way.
"In 2005 alone, 125 veterans committed suicide each week and of the more than 88,000 vets returning from Iraq, more than 28% of them have experienced mental health problems."
So that's another 1400 a year on top of 3,866 who have died in combat.
L.A. Confidential @ 21:
That, and a little crying on God's shoulder seems to work for George W. Bush.
After watching that, all I got is, "Wow!"
Will This Tragedy Continue
We have heard and scene this story many times. For most of these touching moments, there has been an equally tragic conclusion. For in the next tour, this soldiers, and I truly hope not with all my heart, have stepped on a mine or met their end by a fanatical Islamic terrorist who is mad enough the strap a bomb to his body and kill the soldier and himself in the process.
I recall seven soldiers who wrote a letter in the NY Times stating their opposition to the war. Many of them met an ill fate within months after the letter was written. At the time the letter was written, those who wrote it risk an obvious military backlash, but they did it anyway. I am truly sorry for not posting a link to this event, but I was lost for important references needed to recall the story in example. I am sure about the events.
My point is this: These stories, like many more, end up in an usual tragic ending. I am sure this tragedy will effect the innocent the most. The lost of a parent at their ages will affect their lives in developmental ways that have not been measured.
Joseph
WOW!!! Beautiful Keith. Thanks.
By the way, what ever happened to all the Bushbot trolls who used to constantly post on these sights trying to incite our wrath? Maybe they got off the kool aid and drink some coffee.
Rusty Shackleford @ 1:
Home for two weeks then back again?! That's almost as callous as this comment, the mindset this embodies. Bring them home, for good. The mental anguish the soldiers are going through is nothing compared to their children's.
Of course everyone supports the troops - these are our family members, who volunteered to serve their country, but obviously have no voice in policy decisions, forced to occupy a violent hell-hole by a giggling sociopath and his "very serious" sociopathic cadre of cowardly sadists. The right wing fear mongers and war profiteers will stop at nothing to discredit those who want our troops to NOT be killing and dying for reasons as poorly explained as in Vietnam. They trade the blood of others and their own souls for a handful of dollars - pathological scum. Seeing these guys come home is the only good news - sadly the post script indicated that this is just a temporary leave. If the cameras were there when the LT had to tell his boy he was going back, we would hear screams. Please, please no more. All troops home now. Please let sanity find a place in our policy. Please let the proponents of sanity find the courage to act effectively. Less suffering and more happiness for everyone is the goal, and it will never be achieved by mass slaughter. I just wish the democrats had the courage to stand up for what is right, instead of validating the fear. Courage means being afraid and plunging forward regardless. Chin up, friends!
Vote your conscience. Sadly it seems that the only remaining check on Bush's insane ambitions are the generals.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Booze consumption? What about SUICIDE LEVELS among vets?!? OOps. Now I see xoites has the rates. Thanks. And the fight that disabled, disfigured and otherwise injured vets sometimes must wage to get their fair share of benefits. And the lives lost for a reason that turned out to be a lie. It's enough to make you want to cry.
Rusty Shackleford @ 1:
Why is "they volunteered" an invalid argument? I'm genuinely interested in a logical response.
Busholini: "Iraq is just a 'comma' in history".
This video should be stickied on the top front page all day. It is so moving and KO's message could not be more clearer.
to the GOP, the troops are just a commodity, like pork bellies or frozen concentrated OJ, to be bought and sold.
of course, americans as a whole (present company excluded) has paid/is paying/will pay a HUGE price for sitting on our collective ass and yawning as our country evolved into a malevolent military empire.
the troops--these brave individuals, who, for the most part, i respect wholly--are but cogs in our war-dependent economy. and until we, as americans, face reality, "support the troops" will be just another slogan that is easy to say but impossible to carry-out.
getting troops out of iraq is vital--but never assume that that will solve the larger issue.
I wish that military personnel could convey to us citizens how much they hate this war and this administration. Sometimes I don't think they have our backs the same way we try to have theirs.
What about the latest bullshit from the mis-administration how if Busholini doesn't get ANOTHER $50 billion, the
PentagramPentagon will have to lay off personnel and some bases will have to close.Bull. Fucking. Shit. The Pentagon's $471 BILLION budget has already been approved.
No one ever reports the good things happening in Iraq. You have to realize the people of Iraq have no rights as humans. Going over there makes me appreciate the freedom we have in America and all the military over there risking it all for us.
Now that things are improving in Iraq the news (msnbc,cnn nbc,abc,cbc) wont report it just because there agaisnt the cause. Thats a slap in the face to all the Military doing a great job in Iraq.
Thank you once again Keith. As usual, you've nailed it!
36 Dr. Acula Says:
".........and some bases will have to close"
when i read admin bluffs like that i just chuckle. the pentagon would just as soon hire jane fonda as their spokesperson then they would close one of their 800+ military bases straddling the globe like roman proconsuls.
yet, let's say this was a serious statement and not an empty bluff--i say, it is about fucking time we closed a huge chunk of our military bases. they only engender hatred, distrust, cost us billions, and are for the sole benefit of the corporations dependent on their existence. in other words, bush's threat, to me, sounds like a great idea. a win-win, if you will.
Dr. Acula @ 36:
'Mis-administration,' 'Pentagram'...a Perfect Storm you got there Dr. Ac
:lol:
37 Dik Says:
"Now that things are improving in Iraq the news (msnbc,cnn nbc,abc,cbc) wont report it just because there agaisnt the cause."
they actually have been reporting this inaccuracy.
saying that a reduction in violence is a "success" is inaccurate. the reduction in violence is great (and the troops deserve credit for being used as pawns in the corporatocracy boardgame) but that was not/is not the goal. the goal was political reconciliation. and, despite the rdx in violence (mostly attributed to the success of ethnic cleansing, not US involvement) there has not been political reconciliation--which was the WHOLE reason we had the surge.
thus, being polite, makes your point fall short of accuracy.
cbutterb @ 31:
Because the National Guard members that are there are in the guard to protect our shores, not be deployed. Guardsmen tend to join the Guard to be here for our protection, defensive, not over there in an offensive role.
Left & Left - one reason that active duty troops rarely speak out is that they are constantly barraged with "data" which support the policy of their commanders - maybe not "brain-washing", but certainly opinion shaping. Another reason is that troops who see their friends killed are highly motivated by the emotions of fear, rage and revenge, also encouraged by their bosses- until you have been there, it is impossible to understand how strong these feelings are, and how they can change people. Another reason is that they are legally forbidden to speak publicly in opposition to their commanders - until they depart from service. There certainly are a number of vocal groups of veterans who do stand up for their brothers and sanity in general. However, the pressure to conform to doctrine, and follow orders is hard to overstate. I guarantee they have our backs - that's why there are there in the first place. They just don't have a voice ,for far more reasons than listed above. Recent news indicates 120 per week are killing themselves, which is indicative of the incredible pressure on the troops to engage in actions which violate their own conscience, with no legal process in place to ameliorate their own suffering.
No wonder Olbie is pissed. BushCo stole the govmint and the countrys panties. Bush laughs at us all because he got away with everything, even half the country knowing how badly they were had but can only scream and squeeze their blankies tight knowing nothing can be done because equal hacks will be voted in on the other side.
Hail Amerika, the great eunuch.
navyswan @ 20:
Funny. Every time I hear it I want to beat someone to death with a claw hammer.
Dik @ 37:
Good things that happen in Iraq? Yeah like the electricity is back on. The water and sewer are up and running... If we are without electricity for 5 minutes we call the power companies and report the outage. In Iraq they get power for 3 hours a day, if they are lucky. We throw out food from the fridge because it gets spoiled because of no power. What would you do in Iraq?
What about the bad news? Show us everything and let us decide based on the facts. This whine about the "liberal bias" in the media is such a lame crock! There is no media left in this country. Personally I don't know if it is being blocked by the government, or by the corporations that own the media outlets. Just free up the media and let's get the facts and we can once again become an informed populace and make decisions based on facts, not faith.
and yet somewhere around 24% of those polled will in effect stick their fingers in their ears and say "la la la la" while watching this. the same chickenshit chicken hawks that push for war and place families in a situation unimaginable to the 24%..
(awol from the texas national guard, 5 deferments). at the start of this war of choice i saw a news report on marine families in california and how a local group set up a food bank just so the very families with loved ones on the front lines could have some decent meals. this was necessary because our government does not pay much to the "volunteer" forces. and under this administration, the hired security forces of companies like blackwater make the type of money our troops can only imagine. seeing the reaction of these young boys makes me feel so many things and at the top of the list is the utmost respect and understanding of what that man has missed and sacrificed, what the boys must have been going through and how strong the wife must be. to hear this young boy say "i never thought he would come"....please 24%ers tell me again why our troops are still there. unfortunately i do not expect a good explaination. i do however expect the wingnuts attack with an all too predictable "they volunteered to serve etc etc."
Support the troops, Return on Success, Stay the course, Cut n Run, ...Get-R-Done.
Keep it short n simple for the cro-magnons.
cbutterb @ 31:
Back in the day, National Guard and Reserve troops backed up active duty military by serving in peaceful areas like Germany when regular troops were called to war. Many did not volunteer for active duty and are now being called back to Iraq multiple times. That is NOT the original concept many Reserves and Guard volunteered for. In addition, our Guard are severely depleted so we don't have the people we normally would have to help with the fires in southern California or the Gulf Coast devastated by Hurricane Katrina. And in addition, many reserves have not worked at their regular jobs since 2003. Do you think their employers are still holding their jobs for them?
cbutterb @ 31:
It's not an invalid argument. They did in fact volunteer. But they volunteered for something based on lies, misrepresentations and falsehoods. No I'm not talking about the justification for Iraq.
I'm talking about shit like "America's Army" , all those 'Be all you can be' commercials that make joining the army look like a video game. I'm talking about all the catchy slogans that make it all seem like a picnic. I'm talking about the recruiters that lie about what jobs you'll be doing, where you'll be going, the bonuses you'll get and the pay you'll be drawing. I'm talking about getting deployed to Iraq for two weeks less than is required for you to get the benefits you were promised for deployment. I'm talking about stop loss policies that won't let you out even when you've fulfilled your obligation. I'm talking about veterans benefits that people were promised by our government being cut. I'm talking about lying in a moldy roach infested hospital bed suffering from a head wound. I'm talking about coming home because you've been used up by the war machine only to find you've lost your job ( which is technically illegal, but a business cannot operate with it's employees being gone for 4 years ), your home has been foreclosed upon and your car has been repossessed. I'm talking about coming home so mentally damaged that you commit suicide because the government that is supposed to take care of you for your service refuses to treat you for PTSD.
If these people knew the sort of ass raping shell game this administration was going to play on them, or knew the sort of political football they'd become, before they signed on the dotted line, a large majority of these people wouldn't even BE in Iraq because they wouldn't have volunteered in the first place.
please keith.......supporting the troops means wearing a flag pin, clapping at a parade, having a sticker on your suv (that get 15 miles per gallon), and standing in front of the AMVETS/VFW.............
After watching this piece, I came up with a "Support the Troops" t-shirt concept in Star Wars propaganda mode:
http://abqonline.com/SUPPORT-THE-TROOPS.jpg
The eagle is crying, drenching the red white and blue star spangled banner.
Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, et al would rather shoot the eagle so no one sees it crying....
Sad and dark era for our glorious country.
Welcome home, homeless.
50 E in Md
Most volunteered for National Guard Services to help protect their home states during emergencies, not foreign--overseas assignments.
Methinks it's boosh trying to pump up his own National Guard service, even though he deserted during wartime.
Nice piece. However, while we can say that the troops volunteered under perhaps false pretense, many troops are still volunteering despite the obvious collapse in trust in both the government and commanders in the military. I think that the majority of the regular military (not Special Ops) are still ignorant to the realities of this administration when deciding to volunteer. However, everyone in the Special Warfare community are 100% aware of what's going on and I think their volunteering opens up a completely different set of talking point when discussing an all volunteer army in the current US political climate.
miss_kitty @ 40:
You making fun of the pentagram I wear? Admittedly, I have to wear it under my shirt so the Christers around me don't go all ballistic.
cbutterb @ 31:
When joining, I doubt that most people signed a paper volunteering for illegal, unnecessary war. The paper you sign claims that you are going to protect the constitution and the country. I don't think Iraq fits in either of those categories. Not only that, but with the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, illegal wiretapping, torture, and really too much more to add here right now, I don't see any constitution upholding and protecting going on.
If over 72% of the American people are opposed to the Iraq War; why do anti war movies like Lions for Lambs and Redacted fail miserably at the box office?
mrogi @ 59:
Why do right wingers judge reality using movies and television shows?
damn you, KO! now i'm blubbering like a baby at work.
mrogi @ 59:
Why do you equate box office receipts for support/nonsupport of the war? Maybe they're crap movies. I'm against the illegal occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan; I'm not seeing those movies. And as an aside, I personally wouldn't take money to see a movie with Tom Cruise in it.
It's posts like this that make me wonder how you are able to operate a computer. You lose again.
mrogi @ 59:
That's a stupid argument. If America is so Christian why did the movie The Nativity Story (2006) bomb during that holiday season?
cbutterb @ 31:
It is not an argument. It is an excuse.
mrogi @ 59:
Silence of the Lambs made a lot of money. Americans must support serial killing.
mrogi @ 59:
Because people don't want to be reminded of the fact that their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters are in a freaking meat grinder for no good reason and they might never see them again.
Perhaps if they put Jesus being beaten and tortured in them for hours and hours in one corner of the screen that'd help.
The Gospel According to John was a dud, but the virtually the same story told in porno-violence The Passion was a hit.
I heard it was advertised in splatterhound websites. I consider movies like Saw and Hostel to be among its progeny.
Rusty Shackleford @ 65:
Titanic made $600,779,824 at the box office in the US. Americans must support cruise ships slamming into icebergs and freezing crappy young actors.
Minnesota has a program like Welcome Home. They have a lot of veterans that have served in previous wars and the Iraq War. They make it a promise to meet and greet each and every veteran returning home. They find out if they have any urgent needs etc.
It is really moving to see those men (and some are elderly) meeting, shaking hands and hugging those veterans and telling them the appreciate their service.
I wish it was being done all over the United States.
Fahrenheit 9/11 made a ton of money.
The right-wing hack job "debunking" of it went straight to video, where it gathered dust on Blockbuster's shelves.
I could play this game all day, mrogi.
59 mrogi Says: "If over 72% of the American people are opposed to the Iraq War; why do anti war movies like Lions for Lambs and Redacted fail miserably at the box office?"
i have not seen either of these movies... so, to you, does that means that i am pro-operation iraqi liberation?
i fail to understand your, odd, point.
Wow. That actually moved me to tears, and that's saying something. I can't imagine how this man's wife and sons must feel every day. I have to wonder how good a cause it has to be for just one family to go through that much heartbreak, let alone thousands. I shouldn't have to say that Iraq falls far short of that cause.
Rusty Shackleford @ 70:
Heh.. yeah it was made for $6 million and pulled in $119,194,771 in the US and $103,252,111 abroad. That's 37 times what it cost to make. Sicko's only been out since June and it's already paid it's $9 million cost back 3.87 times.
a special comment without it actually being presented as a special comment. and a damn good one at that.
Samson- @ 41:
Ok lets not recognize the troops and there accomplishments in Iraq. Building Schools and clinics so Iraqi children/people get the opportunity to have education and care. I guess none of that stuff is important because we’re all pawns. Everyone is a pawn in the system whether you like it or not.
#31
Yes, they volunteered. My son (and my husband and I) and others put on an uniform and volunteered to serve and protect this country. We promised to obey the orders of the President of the United States and all lawful orders of our superior officers. Invading a country that has done us no harm and being kept in that country as targets in an ongoing civil war does not fall under the oath of serving and protecting this country.
Keith Olbermann can take his 'special comments' and shove them up his ass. Olbermann is smart & informed but he is the wrong guy to deliver the message. His mawkish sermonizing is exceeded only by his sanctimonious smugness. Olbermann is an aloof and condescending ass. His disgusting habit of throwing papers on the floor (which janitors have to clean up) reinforces his arrogant air of superiority and entitlement. He takes no risks and is blithely content preaching to the choir on a nightly basis. The next time Olbermann accepts the challenge of confronting a guest an opposing opinion; it will be the first time.
75 Dik Says:
"Ok lets not recognize the troops and there accomplishments in Iraq. Building Schools and clinics so Iraqi children/people get the opportunity to have education and care. I guess none of that stuff is important because we’re all pawns. Everyone is a pawn in the system whether you like it or not."
if you truly believe that the end game is simply a reduction in violence then yours is a recipe for permanent military operations--as in FOREVER--in iraq. for, without iraqi political reconciliation, there will never be anything resembling a peaceful and democratic society.
your red herring is tempting to go after, but i refuse. the 'schools and clinics' rightwing talking point has been rolled out for years now, and the condition in iraq continues to deteriorate. why? because unless you solve the root of the problem, you can build all the schools and clinics you want, that won't stop the ethnic cleansing, the death squads, and the insurgents.
and, fyi, there are some that are not pawns. and we are not pawns to "the system", as if the system was some nebulous being. no, the "system" is controlled by those that have the means to control politics, business and int'l relations. in other words, there is a small percentage of people that use us like pawns. but do we have to play along and refuse to see the forest for the trees?
kudos to Keith for speaking truth to power. This is why he's kicking ass in the 25-54 demo
I'm not the most sentimental person in the world, but that made my eyes water up. If only that could be repeated (the reunion of the soldier and his family) by, oh, about one hundred and fifty thousand, well, that would be something to be thankful for.
Dik @ 75:
Nobody is claiming it's not important for us to rebuild schools and clinics. Nor is anyone claiming that our troops aren't doing good things over there. But what good is a school you can't go to because your ass will get blown up or shot on the way?
Let me put it in this perspective. Imagine a war in New York between Baptists, Lutherans and Catholics. Every day three or four hundred people DIE because the Baptists don't like the Lutherans and the Catholics don't like the Baptists. Now imagine the Mormons are sent in to stand between the Lutherans, Catholics and Baptists and keep the peace. Are you gonna make a big deal because the Mormon's built a school when fifty Lutheran children were killed by Baptists just trying to GET to school?
Are you gonna jump for joy over the Catholics getting an hour of electricity a day, when leaving their homes just to go to the market might mean them getting shot for shits and giggles by a group of chucklehead Adventists mercenaries who don't fall under Mormon law, but were hired to keep the Mormon Counsel members safe while in New York?
Are you gonna pat somebody on the back and start cheerleading when a fire team of Baptists rape a 14 year old Lutheran girl and then murder her whole family in order to cover it up, planting AK-47's to make it look like they were terrorists?
This doesn't even take into consideration the $1.3-ish trillion dollars this little exercise in futility is going to cost us. Do you think the Chinese are just going to give us the money, smile and continue sending us cheap plastic crap? That moneys' gonna have to come from somewhere pal, and Iraq's oil isn't going to cover it. If we had invested in 10% of that into alternative fuels by now we wouldn't have NEEDED Iraqs oil. Can you even fathom what a trillion dollars is? Can you even visualize what it could have done to benefit our nation? Our people? If you spent a million bucks a day, it would take you 2739 years to spend a trillion dollars.
You're talking about building freaking sand castles under a fire hose, man. Even if you ignore the 2 million some odd displaced people in country and the 2 or so million that have fled Iraq. Between the 'coalition' troops that have died and the Iraqi civilians that have been killed there's enough blood spilled to over there to overflow two Olympic sized swimming pools. So much so that it'd take 137 full sized oil trucks to haul it all away...and we're supposed to be happy because somebody re-seeded a flower bed or painted a school building?
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
77 mrogi Says:
i find your use of "sanctimonious smugness" to be overly smug
:-)
man.... that was pretty powerful. after watching it for the fifth time i noticed they said louisa, va. i used to spend summers down there as a kid. it's a small town about 3-4 hours from DC. i'm sure deployments are even harder on the mother/wife/kids being in a small town where there's fewer resources.
Samson- @ 78:
So whats the answers to the problems in the middle east just turn our backs to it?
Can you aleast agree that are troops are the best in the world. The US has done more for other countries then any other in the history of Civilization.
mrogi @ 77:
Dude... you get owned on the movie premise so instead of attempting, however weakly, to argue that you decide to move on to an ad-hominem of Keith Olbermann.
Btw, if you consider throwing papers on the floor disgusting then your evaluation system is really out of wack.
Those janitors likely get paid by the hour. So what if they have to pick up some papers and how do you know Keith doesn't pick them up himself after the camera is off?
His 'choir' seems to be getting larger. That must piss you off eh? :)
sorry for the poor grammer
mrogi @ 77:
OH NOES! teh h0rr0r1!!!!111!! Janitors have to pick up PAPERS! Who will think of teh JANITORz!?!!!11!!?!?!//1/1!!!
Oh thank God for mrogi. He's covered the janitors' human rights. Do you know what janitors in hospitals have to clean up, Einstein?
Dik @ 84: