Hardball: Buchanan and Maddow on Illegal Immigration: David Sirota too!
By Nicole Belle Sunday Nov 18, 2007 2:35pm
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John Amato and I have had a lot of conversations about illegal immigration lately. Unlike Rahm Emanuel, who--most frighteningly--thinks Dems must move to the right of Republicans on this issue, I really think it's a third rail for progressives, because they get sucked into playing defense on what boils down to a lot of reactionary Republican Fear of Brown People. The cold hard truth is that it's an issue now because the Republicans need a wedge issue. David Sirota:
As our paychecks stagnate, our personal debt climbs and our health care premiums skyrocket, We the People are ticked off. Unfortunately for those in Congress, polls show that America is specifically angry at the big business interests that write big campaign checks.
So now comes the con - the dishonest argument over illegal immigration trying to divert our ire away from the corporate profiteers, outsourcers, wage cutters and foreclosers that buy influence - and protection - in Washington.
Republicans like Rep. Tom Tancredo (Colo.) are demanding the government cut off public services for undocumented workers, build a barrier at the Mexican border and force employers to verify employees' immigration status. Democrats like Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) are urging their allies to either embrace a punitive message aimed at illegal immigrants, or avoid the immigration issue altogether. And nobody asks the taboo question: What is illegal immigration actually about?
The answer is exploitation. Employers looking to maximize profits want an economically desperate, politically disenfranchised population that will accept ever worse pay and working conditions. Illegal immigrants perfectly fit the bill.
Politicians know exploitation fuels illegal immigration. But they refuse to confront it because doing so would mean challenging their financiers.
Instead we get lawmakers chest-thumping about immigration enforcement while avoiding a discussion about strengthening wage and workplace safety enforcement — proposals that address the real problem.
Case in point: Watch Rachel Maddow try to inject any semblance of sense of how to handle immigration into a discussion on Hardball from last week. At the word "comprehensive", Tweety shuts her down, because obviously, she's not serious...because apparently only Very. Serious. People. discuss immigration in what you have to assume is a cherry-picking manner. Pat Buchanan (and why would you pick Mr. Xenophobe Isolationist to try to debate the issue?) just yells over anything Rachel says.
UPDATE: John Amato... David Sirota articulates perfectly what is going on....We've received a lot of local press coverage for our Blue America pushback against the Rahm/Tancredo bigot bill...Donate if you can...We're going forward with some new ads and could use your help...Bob Cesca:
The other tragic thing about the exchange is that it exposed the fact that Pat Buchanan gets paid lecture fees from businesses that hire and exploit illegal workers. In other words, it doesn't matter whether these corporations hire illegal immigrants -- as long as the check clears, it's fine by him. Way to stand by your principals, Buchanan.
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I love it how people can say 'we need comprehensive immigration reform' but are unable to explain exactly what that entails.
GuessLotto.com
stop the republocratic tyranny on language. state the case.
we should start a political party along these lines: third-rail progressive. people unafraid to touch sensitive issues, getting over our liberal guilt.
Buchanan has to yell over everybody because nobody will listen to the complete, radical idiot.
I just find it funny that Chris asked Rachael to be on his show. He has seen the good reviews Keith gets when she's on his show so now he wants her too. Too bad he doesn't allow her to talk because her words are what have made he so popular. She's way too smart for his kind of show.
He who yells first, loses, Pat. You should know that by now, my friend.
We better wake up - the Right-Fright Machine has decided that their last-ditch best effort to retain control, (which, like everything else about them, is devoid of anything new, honest, ethical, or in anyone else's best interests besides themselves), is to re-up the ante on fear-mongering, lies, baseless accusations, calling the kettle black, (Bush's favorite tactic this week), and out-shouting anyone who disagrees even more than usual.
We must identify their rhetoric for the fringe wierdness that it is and we REALLY have to relentlessly bust Tweety and the other Right-wing noise makers for their bias.
We cannot put up with it any longer, there is too much at stake, and if we don't stop it now, it will take another civil war to get our government back.
I wonder if anybody else is as tired of looking and listening to that old fool Buchannan as I am? The man has absolutely no viable credentials . Why someone would consider his opinion valid is way beyond me , especially when the other side of the debate is offered by the totally relevant and intelligence of Rachel Maddow , and of course Tweety is one of the worst at his so called JOB that there is . Most of them seem like spoiled children who never listen and only speak to hear themselves talk. Rachel needs her own show she is lightyears ahead of most of the morons offered up at MSNBC.
Matthews has mastered the art of seeming to debate an issue when in essence stifling healthy debate. Can't he let Maddow get her point across without focusing on trivial issues?
"You're laughing.........", he said. Give me a break.
First of all, no one can make an argument in favor of illegal immigration. That's like making an argument in favor of anything illegal. Change the immigration laws if you don't like the current ones.
Secondly, illegal immigration will exist as long as big business profits from the exploitation of the immigrants. Big business is the problem. The government will never address this though. And as long as millions of double-digit Americans shop at Wal-Mart and the like, illegal immigration will continue to be sponsored by the state.
more on this at my blog...
They want a wedge issue but what they forget is that the wedge is bigger on the side of Hispanics. They are going to wedge themselves right into oblivion.
cons attack the symptom of illegal immigration instead of the disease of free trade/ NAFTA. Kudos to David Sirota
That should read "double-digit IQ..."
The Republicans seem determined to commit political/demographic suicide by running after the shrinking white racist vote. It is the last place progressives should go. We need to reframe the argument. Like: No human being is "illegal"...
Bigotry must run in the Buchanan family. Doesn't Pat's sister work for "Crazy" Tom Tancredo's Presidential campaign?
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander @ 8:
I suppose that means nobody could argue in favor of helping slaves escape to the North when that was illegal?
The Repugs are not interested in fixing the problem because:
By maintaining the status quo you undermine the labor movement.
The Chamber of Commerce demands that labor cost be capped at 90's levels.
The Repugs will undermine every attempt to find solutions to the problem in order to satisfy their masters.
I am sorry that Chris & Pat are fellow Catholics. Both are disgraces, especially Mr Buchanan.
The Republicans have put illegal immigration at the forefront of the national debate mostly because they think it's going to be their winning platform in 2008. They want to distract the American public from their disastrous misadventure in Iraq. What better way to unite the masses behind a single issue than to appeal to their basic xenophobic feelings?
There are more important things to be concerned with such as Iraq, global warming and healthcare. These are pressing issues that need immediate attention, yet for some reason illegal immigration is the number one priority for these people (GOP). Go figure.
Why in GAWDS name does she go on with these two demogoging as*holes?
I'd suggest Rachel Maddow for Democratic candidate but I like her too much to do something like that to her.
We have this law here in NYC. If you are caught with an illegal handgun, it's an automatic 3 1/2 years in prison. Let it be the same for anyone hiring illegal immigrants. Period.
Then Col. Sanders can pay his pluckers a living wage.
"The answer is exploitation. Employers looking to maximize profits want an economically desperate, politically disenfranchised population that will accept ever worse pay and working conditions. Illegal immigrants perfectly fit the bill."
There's a word for this, you know - slavery. When the privileged class pays to import controlled workers who are stripped of their rights (and it doesn't have to be all their rights - remember slaves in ancient Egypt and Greece actually had some rights), work for bare subsistence compensation, are deprived of adequate medical care, housed in poverty conditions, and their travel is restricted by their employers - the word for this is slavery.
Get it? Why not start calling it what it is around here?
Corporations want slaves - it is the most profitable answer to the issue of corporate workplace expenses they can desire.
Examples: the Filipino workers who did the labor for the American Embassy in Baghdad, and the imported Asian workers doing the labor in Dubai.
These people are slaves. That's what they are. It is NOT an inflated definition, it's the traditional definition of the word. Look it up yourself.
From Merriam Webster (the dictionary conservatives prefer over the wiki dictionary, the real, traditional authoritative dictionary):
Slave:
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another 2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
There you have it.
As Paul Krugman has stated in his articles and interviews, with the Republicans the issues ultimately boil down to race.
Racism is the single issue that unites the GOP base. There's no escaping it. However they doublespeak the intentions it comes down to this: empowerment of a small white ownership class which has the right to exploit all other people.
The so-called "guest-worker" concept is a perfect, pristine example of the doublespeak: the correct word is slavery, and creating the so-called "guest-worker" programs would go a long way towards repealing the progress made in the civil-rights era, re-instating slavery, and re-establishing the Elite White Ownership Class that makes or breaks laws according to their whims.
These are the goals of the Southern White Male who comprises the GOP base.
Why can't people just come out and say so, for crying out loud?
Speaking in direct terms would do so much to help America. We need to combat this ugly double speak wherever we encounter it.
BIGBONEDED @ 6:
Yes, why does he show up on so many shows labeled as any kind of expert? Who's giving the ok on this? The network heads, of course.
BIGBONEDED Says:
I wonder if anybody else is as tired of looking and listening to that old fool Buchannan as I am? The man has absolutely no viable credentials . Why someone would consider his opinion valid is way beyond me , especially when the other side of the debate is offered by the totally relevant and intelligence of Rachel Maddow , and of course Tweety is one of the worst at his so called JOB that there is . Most of them seem like spoiled children who never listen and only speak to hear themselves talk. Rachel needs her own show she is lightyears ahead of most of the morons offered up at MSNBC.
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You are so right about Buchanen. It's like he is some kind of toxic fungus that lives within the studios of MSNBC. He is on all of their fucking shows always spluttering his pathetic stupidity. Tweety is simply an utterly deranged and rabid GE CORPORATE SLUT who is trying to find anyway he can , given his own sense of egocentric delusions of grandeur, to make sure one of his corporate buddies/ repiglican wins the next election for President. Right now his boyfriend is Guiliani, a fellow draq queen. Yes, Miss Matthews is also a draq queen who instinctively ejaculates at the mere sight of her fellow draq queen Guiliani.
Americans are in love with cheap goods; Walmart and other big box retailers who get their goods made by esssentially Chinese (and other countries) slave labor; cheap, oversize portions of food, picked and prepared in many cases by those dreaded "illlegals"; and cheap labor: roofers, day labor, janitorial services, landscapers, auto repair, construction, etc. Until we demand that our restaurants, contractors, and maintenance workers are all legalized American citizens, paid a fair and living wage and decide that our love of low prices contributes to illegal immigration, we should all be quiet.
Most illegal immigrants are not employed by "big business" That is a myth. Most are involved in small business and the informal sector. I say this because you cannot enforce the hiring illegals when there are literally millions of different points of employment. Good luck hiring hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats to root out illegals. Yes some industries do exploit illegal immigrants - meat packers and labor-intensive agricultural produce like lettuce and strawberries - but people within their own ethnic communities are just as likely to exploit the new immigrants.
Its so frustrating to watch these kind of exchanges on the tube because no one wants to talk about the root causes or sensible solutions. Until you address the economic motivation for immigrants to come in the first place, you are only band-aiding the situation. I have no doubt that Republicans are driving the issue with an undercurrent of xenophobia, but the democrats are demogoguing the situation as well when they rail against big business. They are both false arguements and totally ignore the heart of the matter. No wonder President Calderon took the extraordinary step of complaining publicly to the U.S. Mexico is being used to further unrelated political agendas.
First, this clip illustrates quite clearly why I do not watch Hardball - Matthews is a loudmouth and a jerk.
Second, I thought NAFTA was supposed to help keep the poor people in their own countries by allowing their own governments/corporations to exploit them without having to export them here?!
Immigration per se is not a bad thing, and I don't think it's feasible to totally stop desperate people from "breaking in" to any country. I do think it might be a good idea to try a little harder. If we are really in jeopardy from so-called "terrorists" entering our country and flying planes into tall buildings, it might make sense to a least make an effort to cut down on that risk. Building a wall/fence along the southern border could help a bit, along with more patrol/enforcement officers. Requiring employers to actually follow the law and to fine/punish those who don't should be mandatory.
What makes me laugh about this whole issue is that it is so obvious that Bush, while he pretends to care and be serious anout a "comprehensive plan," is just putting up a smoke screen to protect his elitist, corporate buds. He'll talk about it a lot, but do nothing to impede the flow of cheap labor so they can all continue to stuff their pockets. I hate to keep saying this, but the idea is to just destroy the middle class so we have no wealth and no will to rail against the imposition of their fascist NWO.
Beyonce Welch @ 16:
No they are disgraces to the whole human race, not just Catholics. they have nothing to say, they both whine, and they probably kick their dogs!
Besides that, how do you figgure that ten years or less down the road Chris will become the new Pat as his show fades into obilivion and he must become a side kick for some other jerk-hoff.
What goes around comes around, especially in stupid news.
Buchanan's sure a feisty little f*ck.
After a performance like that, it re-raises the question of whether he or his sister is loonier.
It's a shame what those priests did to him as a child.
I agree that Rahm and the Dems should STFU on this issue and let the Republicans beat the snot out of each other. The "wedge" is between the Pat Buchanan wing and the NFIB/C of C wings of the GOP. Anyone apopleptic over immigration is probably not a Dem or even swing voter in the first place. This is THEIR puddle of shite, let them lie in it.
It seems to me that the illegal immigration issue can be addressed from two different perspectives. Some Republicans are using a bigotry approach, and are placing on ballots for 2008 a resolution that "English is the official language", in an effort to turn out the same constituency as was turned out by various banning of same sex marriage proposals in 2004.
My perspective relates to what Maddow allured to, namely, that there is a financial incentive for businesses to support illegal immigration, namely, to undercut wages in jobs that Americans would want to do, particularly construction. My view is that if you support "free trade", which entails shipping jobs out of this country to low wage third world countries, then you should support the logical extension, which is to bring in people willing to work for less to undercut wages in those kinds of jobs that can't be off-shored. Hence the conundrum for the leading Democrats, as we are steered towards candidates who support big business's sacred cow, "free trade", the fiasco that produces $¾ trillion/year trade deficits. Clinton and Obama have come out in support for more Nafta, this time with Peru.
I think there should be some kind of guest worker program. I only want legal immigrants in here doing work that Americans won't do, such as agriculture. However, we have to differentiate between work that Americans won't do, versus the moving of wage scales from middle class to working poor as is being done in construction, in this great endeavor to destroy the middle class. I think that one's view on this issue should be identical to one's view on free trade, for exactly the same reasons. I oppose any measure that disparages the immigrant's culture or language.
Meanwhile the DLC candidate of choice, and current front runner is Clinton, who would keep free trade going, and has a health plan that involves sitting down with the lobbyists from the health industry to determine how best to turn national health care into corporate welfare. We'll hear a lot of talk, and no action, on illegal immigration from either Republicans or Democrats, as the true motivation for illegal immigration from this government of the corporation is to undercut wages for middle class Americans.
Preacher Boob @ 28:
A tough call, but I'd have to say his sister.
Afraid of brown people??? The people that are truly afraid of brown people control the mexican govment!!! They are the racist regime. How many people here have watched their schoools destroyed by immigrants??? I have. I have to remove my youngest from our neighborhood high school because there are so may illegal hispanics. The violence and the lack of respect are just to much. You people really need to get a grip. Write the mexican govment and tell them to stop throwing out their indian population. This is the real problem. That and of course the fact that liberals have created another give me,you owe me culture with latina's !!!!!
xoites defends Constitution @ 14:
You suppose wrongly. Those are very different issues, and you know it. No one is capturing illegal immigrants, chaining them, and bringing them here. The reason immigrants come here voluntarily is because they are enticed by the lure of a better life.
Why is no accountability ever placed on the countries the immigrants come from? Why is no accountability placed on the continuing policies of our own government that exploits these people? Like I said, the problem is in our immigration policies and corporate sponsorship of immigration violations. Change those policies and we have no immigration problems.
Illegals are being exploited, no doubt, but it is not slavery. That is very offensive to the slaves and their descendants.
yolo @ 32:
The only "give me, you owe me culture" being subsidized is multinational corporations' bottom line. They may not employ many illegals, but they benefit from the downward pressure on wages.
What I need to know, does that clown ever sleep? How long since his wife has seen him?
That clown is on TV day and night.
On illegal imigration, the problem is people want it both ways. Stop illegals working for below minimum wages but keep product and service prices low.
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander @ 33:
Oh, Really?
Also
And
As well as
It took me five minutes to dig that up and i have read about many more over the past ten years.
jwf @ 34:
I agree the dems ought to STFU on this.
I am no fan of illegal immigration, the first generation of latino immigrints tends to be catholic & conservative but the next generation tends toward secular progressivism.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/us/15hispanic.html?_r=5&th=&emc=th&ore...
I like these people better than confederate flag waving white trash, & hope this will tile the balance in the electorate away from racist GOP trash.
Maybe this will help you make some connections.
The distinction should be made between acts that are morally criminal as opposed to those that are statutorily criminal. In legal terms it's the difference between acts that are mala in se and those that are mala prohibita.
Immigration is mala prohibita. Breaking that law is a violation of a statute as opposed to a violation of a moral principle such as murder. As a result, it needs to be reexamined to make sure it fits the reality on the ground and that it's a "smart" law.
NoBuddy @ 30:
The demonizing of the Peru Free trade agreement is knee-jerk anti-free trade nonsense and not based on the facts. Peru primarily exports minerals like copper. Those are inputs for manufacturing - this helps U.S. manufacturing, rather than hurting it. The U.S. imports these things anyways, why not get them at a lower price? Also, Peru already had free trade with the U.S. under the auspices of fighting narcotics. This was a humiliating process that constantly required renewal and did zero to actually combat the drug trade.
Many here are using immigration to rail against free trade. Many are also completely incorrect on the effects of NAFTA. Here's an excellent discussion on free trade from today:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/19/72959/078
You cannot change the wage structure of a developing country overnight (i.e. "slave labor" referred to by some here). This causes economic chaos. Patience is required, but wages do rise - hence this is why we don't have an illegal immigration problem from the Asian Tiger countries. You do not need wage parity to stop illegal immgration, what you need is hope in the developing countries (like Mexico) that the economic future will be better. This is why you need foreign investment driven by free trade agreements. This is the virtuous cycle that eventually mitigates illegal immegration. The vicious cycle - colapse of free trade and direct foreign investment is actually what exacerbates illigal immigration - exactly what many here propose.
I must go, but i will leave you with this.
Why should these guys listen to anything that Rachel has to say? She's only a girl for crying out loud! There was a time I can recall that this nation led the way toward a global society. A "World Without Borders" seemed within grasp. Now, the once-great has been reduced to a nation whose face to the world is the face of the paranoid, racist, bigoted xenophobe, representative of only a fringe minority of this country's people. At the same time, corporate interests are helping prop up the economies of countries like India and China by outsourcing and inbalanced trade. The past 7 years have ruined us as a nation and I'm growing more skeptical of any ability to turn it around anytime soon.
Sackcloth and ashes seems to be all we're left with.
Incidentally, I could only endure about 2/3rds of this clip. Whatever happened to common courtesy? Listening to Pat Buchanan sets my teeth on edge.
Wasn't there a rumor about that guy over on MSNBC, what's his name, you know the guy that his whole hour is about immigration, every night, the whole hour, for years now, to run for President? What the hell is that guys name? Well, I'm getting older, these kind of things happen.
At any rate, wasn't his show kind of in the crapper and about to be dumped when he came up with the idea to focus on illegal immigration, and his numbers started to go up. Maybe Tweety is thinking the same thing but whow now, he is for the ID card for everyone in the country...dumb ass, oh whatshisface is against that..so he won't get any traction.
Every once in a while, Lou almost kind of touches on that key point. If there were no jobs here, they wouldn't be coming over. But since companies are more than happy to hire people in cash for a fraction of what they would have to pay legally, the people keep coming over the border. Stop the jobs, stop the illegal immigration. Or, at least cut it back severely. But, as you said, NO ONE dares touch that issue. And corporations aren't worried in the least. If anyone tries to lean on The True Masters, they'll threaten to move more jobs over the border, or some other threat.
They are slaves in Dubai but not in United States. They practice their religion, they raise their kids.Give them education and more often than not a future they could not have dreamed of. You throw them out, the farmer is Fresno does not have the people to pick his crop. Even the white-owned Arby's in Ogden,Utah hired the brown folks. It is not only about big businesses. It is about all the American residents. I am sure many of you would not want your kids to do car-washing and flip burgers and re-stock beer cans. These guys pay rents, they pay taxes (on income, sales tax, etc), they keep the property value high enough for the old folks to have comfortable retirements (many invest in their properties for long term benefits).
It is the economy stupid. It is always economics. In fact politics is 90% economics.
One thing I am sure of is this is not slavery. Americans should know better. How do I know it? My friend has an Indian restaurant. He has to hire a new dish-washer almost every 3 months. He has to pay them at least 8$ an hr every time. Similar story with the bus boys. I do not think it is slavery. This is America. The land of opportunity. This is beacon of hope for multitudes of masses around the world. Do not let the dream die. Porfavor.
Love when he busts her for laughing, and does this serious face, then two seconds later he is yucking it up with his pal Buchanan again.
Guess he is fair, he lets the person he wants to listen to talk, and talks over the person who is making sense.
Indeed. Immigration is an issue conservatives can pound the tabletops over and use up precious media oxygen that would otherwise be used to examine the failure of their agenda and core principles ON EVERY OTHER FRONT.
-Iraq a deluded neocon think-tank disaster.
-Foreign policy in shambles. Few trust us. Our name is mud in diplomatic channels.
-Increasing hatred of the U.S. in the muslim world.
-Pakistan, an actual nuclear state, under martial law by military dictator and dangerously unstable.
-Neocons pushing for MORE war by attacking Iran.
-Dollar weak and falling.
-More and more wealth held by very few extremely wealthy.
-Increasing pressures on middle class.
-Looming credit crisis.
-Oil near $100/barrel, with worldwide production peaking and going to beginning inevitable production decrease in coming decades.
-Global warming that conservatives refuse to acknowledge.
-Wetlands depletion of crisis proportions, leading to massive environmental and economic damage.
-Rampant cronyism, corruption and failure of government services the direct result of the conservative push for deregulation.
This is abject failure of most conservative philosophy and thought of the past few decades.
So hey! Let's debate about them dirty mexicans trying to sneak over here to wash our dishes!
xoites defends Constitution @ 14:
Dave, I definitely favor and argue in favor Cannabis, even though the Federal Government claims it is illegal.
I'm still waiting for Congress to amend the Constitution to make Cannabis Prohibition legal, but after 70 years of getting away with the scam, it doesn't look like they're in much of a rush.
Why, oh WHY do you insist that anything about Chris "Tweety" Matthews is Democratic?
He hasn't been a true Democrat since he wrote speeches for Jimmy Carter.
I love the way people are automatically labeled as being afraid of brown people the second the immigration issue comes up. It seems if you are opposed to people swarming into this country by the millions, living off of our jobs, having anchor children who are automatically citizens and then drain our system by our having to also educate their children and provide healthcare for them that they don't pay for so the cost goes up for us, you are considered prejudiced. Got news for you, it isn't just brown people, they come from Europe, Asia, South America, Mexico, and everywhere else on the planet. I am opposed to every person who comes into this country being allowed to stay here and their children being US citizens when their parents just have the kid to have what they call anchor children.
The government allowed our jobs to be shipped out all over the planet. The companies will not pay a wage that someone can live on and they would rather have an illegal. It saves them money. If we started to really crack down and hold the business responsible then we might see wages increase for US workers. We need to stop the stream of persons who are taking what is left of the jobs in this country.
I feel bad for a mother who is separated from her child because she is in this country illegally. Perhaps the child is a US citizen because he/she was born here, but to stop granting citizenship for children born in this country to parents who are not would put an end to one problem. The children and the mother could all be deported. At the same time, if enough mothers become separated from their children perhaps they would think about having these anchor children. They would also start to think about the cost of coming into this country illegally.
What we have is a country and a way of life that is going to hell in a hand basket. These people are draining our system and taking our jobs. We can not take care of the entire world! It is time to back off and concentrate on the United States and its citizens to bring this country back to the greatness that it once was. We are well on our way to becoming a third well country that mimics the country many of these people have come from.
Saying people who are afraid of brown people or prejudiced who want them sent back so we can take care of ourselves and not have them drain the system anymore is insane. The reason the poor are so sick of them is that we are sick of the problems that trickle down to us because they are here. For example, if companies could not hire cheap labor they might start paying a decent wage, if landlords suddenly found too many apartments perhaps the prices would go down so a young family could afford them. It is not about skin color at all. It is about what they are taking away from this country. It is much more than just the identity theft that is so high along our boarders. From what I can see, very few add anything to our country. The only ones who benefit are the companies who employ them.
pissed off patricia @ 3:
This goes to exactly why dems and progressives never convince me of anything...you are just way smarter than everybody else. How do you think you will change a voter's view when you are always telling them how stupid they are??
I am a life long democrat and reasonably progressive, but I am completely disappointed in the way dems constantly demean people they disagree with....to paraphrase..."you don't seem to hate the policy, you seem to hate the people"
I challenge Mr. Tancredo or any of his ilk to stand face to face with the family of a sick immigrant child and deny, in person, health care to that child. Let it be televised and podcast so everyone can see what kind of people they really are. Force them to tour Hutto and explain to the detainees there why they are being treated like murderous felons. And let them explain why their ire is directed at mainly brown-skinned people, and how their so-called Christian beliefs justify that treatment.
Let them explain how those beliefs justify harassing and killing people along the border, too.
Big Corps don't "Hire" illegal immigrants, people (everyday folks like you and me and your neighbors) that have crap work that they want done CHEAPLY (nannys/gardeners/cleanup debris/lawn mowers.....etc) are the biggest employers/enablers.
Would you give a homeless veteran $5.00 an hour to rake your yard? "Well, he's homeless, I'm HELPING him out for crying out loud". "Where's your heart?" "Would you rather me kick him to the curb?"
No, I would rather govt. programs that WORK help him. I would rather you not hire illegal immigrants. I would rather you not feel like you are helping someone, when in actuality you are really not doing anything at all but trying to get cheap labor for yourself.
It,s not hard to put and end to this problem. The goverment set up task forces in each state there job going after compaines with illigal workers stop all food stamps, houseing, free medical, free school, no other freebees they would leave on there own.the rapest, robbers, and others would be put in jail then sent back after they serve there time at hard labor.Big business that hire them should be find big dollars and jail for upper management.
pops @ 57:
It is hard. Sure, you can raid some high profile companies and stop the hiring of illegal immigrants for those specific businesses, but you're not going to drive illegals out of the country, you will only drive them into the informal employment sector. In tax collection, there's a reason why only one in 300 tax returns are audited - because its an extremely time consuming process. Same thing with checking on employers for illegals. Do you want a government official coming to your residence to investigate if you hired a nanny illegal, invading your privacy? This is what it would take to stop the hiring of illegals and I don't think you want this.
8:09 AM - PST - unfrozencaveman Says: "The demonizing of the Peru Free trade agreement is knee-jerk anti-free trade nonsense and not based on the facts. ...Here’s an excellent discussion on free trade from today:"
Well, there is one fact that trumps all others. The trade deficit, around 3/4th of a trillion dollars, year after year, proves that free trade isn't working. Your "excellent" discussion of free trade produces one salient point - "First, the US must accept the fact that we have a hard road for the next few generations." Well, I'll be dead in a few generations, so I would opt for plan B, articulated by Dennis Kucinich, which is to end Nafta, and participation in the WTO, and instead engage in bilateral trade agreements when Americans and workers would benefit. Let's see, Red China has about 1.2 trillion dollars, due to their trade surpluses? We are now a debtor nation to Red China? There are political and military reasons that trump economic reasons to not continue down the same path. These countries, who benefit from free trade, and have surplus dollars are developing Sovereign Wealth Funds (SWF) to invest in our equity markets. So, we're directly handing dollars to foreign countries, morphed into the largest debtor nation, largely beholden to foreign countries, and now are transferring ownership of our corporations to foreign countries. I have an earthshaking tip for you - these multi-national corporations tend to engage lobbyists to influence politicians, which has turned this country into a government of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation. Well, with increasing foreign ownership of formerly "American" corporation, your politician is increasingly becoming foreign owned.
A weak dollar should stimulate exports - unfortunately, through free trade, we have already exported much of our manufacturing base, hence the economic benefits of a weak dollar become muted. And your notion that we accept your "excellent" overview of free trade, which implies a "few" generations of trade imbalances to the tune of $¾ trillion/year is a prescription for disaster. Kucinich is right, engage in trade through bilateral trade agreements when it makes sense, and a end to this ideological worship of "free trade" no matter what. Not a prohibition of trade, but a prohibition of trade when the deal won't work to America's benefit.
Free trade, which implies bringing American wages into parity with third world wages, will also bring our pensions, social security and health care into parity, which means ending them. I need politicians that will work for American people, not multi-national corporations with multi-national owners.
where the fuck does maddow live???
definitely not in socal
illegal immigration has indeed changed....its much greater now than 20 years ago
and to say that we havent done anything before doesnt mean we shouldnt do something now
Politicians. Jeebus. I reminded of yet another Mel Brooks film, History of the World, Pt 1:
Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.
Dole Office Clerk: What?
Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human existence into a viable and meaningful comprehension.
Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bullshit* artist!
Comicus: Hmmmmmm...
Dole Office Clerk: Did you bullshit last week?
Comicus: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you try to bullshit last week?
Comicus: Yes!
Pretty much sums up the average politician and the crap they lay on us, just with nicer ties.
NoBuddy @59 -
A trade deficit in and of itself is not a bad thing. The U.S. afterall has had trade deficits for decades. It is what the money is borrowed for, that is the key. The trade deficits are becoming a problem now, not only because of their size, but more importantly for what the money is spent on. The U.S. is spending a larger percentage of GDP on unproductive and counterproductive investments like the Iraq War and our wasteful and overpriced healthcare. This is a phenomenon over the past 5 years, but traditionally, over the long span, the U.S. has simply been a good investment for foreigners. This is being frittered away right now, but it's important to understand that in the academic sense, countries should run surpluses and deficits based on their current economic opportunities - i.e. capital should chase the best opportunities regardless of borders. Right now countries are starting to realize that their U.S. treasury bonds investments are not underwritten by the same economy as ten years ago - hence the fall of the dollar.
You're trying to perpetuate the myth that the U.S. doesn't have a manufacturing sector anymore. This is totally false and easily shot down by looking at the numbers. In some ways U.S. maufacturers are victims of their own success by generating more with less workers. This is where the U.S. government should step in and help generate new industries and educational opportunities. This will take time, not a few generations, but it does require patience and competent government leadership. Leadership we will not get by the way from people like Kucinich who use anti-free trade as a cheap political ploy.
So what do you call it when a bunch of uninvited people from the "old world" suddenly decide to just go on over to the "new world" and set up housekeeping?
The US was born from illegal immigration.
To Tweety: If this is, and has been such an important issue, then how come Pat Buchanan doesn't have Secret Service protection afforded to former presidents?.......
Good on Rachel for exposing this as another right wing wedge issue.....keep laughing Rachel, you have every right to do so - after listening to a bunch of old white men whining about this issue!
Todd @ 57:
Yes, big corps do "hire" illegal immigrants. From a few months ago: The sweeping raids at Swift & Co. plants across six states Tuesday led to at least 1,282 arrests nationwide, making it the government's single-largest worksite-enforcement operation ever. http://www.reyeslaw.com/news/article-federal-immigration-raid-swift-1214... I wonder how meatpacking plant wages have been trending...
pissed off patricia @ 4:
Tweety looks at Rachel with complete disgust and disdain.
For every illegal Mexican working in the United States, there's an American getting, uninsured labor.
make that CHEAP, UNINSURED LABOR.
Personally, I think both sides are to blame, which is the case on all issues. This site is becoming irrelevant as more and more people wake up to the fact that the left/right paradigm is actually just a show, a clever ruse to divide and distract us. What we have here in America is oligarchy - one party rule by the elite. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between Bush and Clinton, we have all been had.
Personally, I'm tired of paying increasingly high property taxes here in Denver so illegal immigrants can live off of me getting free healthcare and housing that even I can't have as a US c