Olbermann vs. Dobbs: Your "Liberal" Media In Action
By Nicole Belle Friday Nov 30, 2007 11:15am
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Keith Olbermann brings on VoteVet.org's Jon Soltz to discuss Rep. John Murtha's most recent statement that the "surge" is working, noting that most of the rest of the media has been eager to only focus on the first part of his statement, essentially ignoring the second half, where Murtha notes that while the military aspect has done what it needs to, the political aspect has not been successful. Based on this Wired report, I would question if military aspect can really be categorized as "successful," especially considering that no politicians are ever given a chance to see anything but highly managed events within the Green Zone, and while troop casualties may be down, Iraqi casualties don't get reported. However, for the purposes of this comparison, let's give Murtha the benefit of the doubt and simply appreciate the context that Olbermann and Soltz attempt to provide to Murtha's statement.
Now watch how Lou Dobbs handles the very same story:
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Well the country's run by old rich people. Old people are spaced out, careless, and mistake prone. For that matter people who don't have to worry about money (politicians) are also spaced out, careless, and mistake prone for the most part.
Bush is the Ultimate in spaced out, careless, and mistake prone of course. But when your born on home base and think you hit a home run what do you expect.
Yeah I noticed that for the first time Dobbs was honest with himself when he said "I am not smart" for get the rest of his sentence, we can just focus on the FACT that he said he is not smart. so the headlines tomorrow should read Dobbs:I'm dumb as a post
The surge. WTF? Whatever happened to the brigades of Iraqi Army and Police we were training? When are they going to stand up? Did that just evaporate like a bad marketing program at a poorly run corporation? I want my goddamned money back. The surge, my ass.
Hey, I also noticed that nobody seems to bring up the fact that the surge has lasted about 8 months longer then we were promised. once again the Republicans can just lie their ass's off, nobody cares. they can commit crimes against humanity...no problem, they can steal billions (probably trillions) and that's cool, but if a Democrat opens his (or her) mouth we are going to examine every word as if it were a crime scene.
these people should be ashamed of themselves, but as I always remember Republicans have no morals so they do not know shame.
More and more, President Bush's strategy in Iraq resembles an M.C. Escher illustration. Like the hands drawing each other or the elegant depiction of stairways that cannot possibly meet, the military progress of the U.S. surge is producing an image of a future Iraq that, while glorious to behold, can never be built. The very American alliances with Sunni tribal leaders that are reducing sectarian violence and the threat from Al Qaeda also threaten to undermine the Shiite majority government in Baghdad. And the "enduring" U.S. presence announced by President Bush this week may serve only to protect the Maliki government from its domestic enemies, not its friend and American foe Iran. If anything, the surge may be making the prospect of Iraqi national reconciliation even more remote.
For the details, see:
"Bush's M.C. Escher Strategy for Iraq."
I'm so tired of these republican fuckers saying that democrats want the surge to fail or they want to lose in Iraq all for political considerations. I'd like to see one of the fucktwads say it to my face.
Marcus Aurelius @ 3:
that's another good point, it just doesn't matter in this country what the criminal Republicans do, the bought and paid for media just looks the other way! FUCK, it makes me mad!
everyone should e-mail some facts about the surge to Lou Dobbs and let him know he's one of the most anti-American bastards in the country and he should change his ways!
What has workedi is, when the Brits pulled out the violence subsided.
Dobbs ain't that smart?
NO SHIT!
Just because Lou Dobbs and CNN as a whole are not as far left as Keith Olbermann doesn't mean CNN isn't liberal. They're just slightly more subtle at it.
The last two CNN debates should've removed all doubt as to their liberal tendencies.
i heard dobbs will be on DEMOCRACY NOW! with amy goodman in the near future (mon?)
his whole anti immigration schtick started months after the talk radio blowhards started pushing it (right after katrina) - then he jumped on the bandwagon
Today's story: Let's say I am standing on the edge of a bayou with a buddy of mine, trying to get across to the other side, but we see an alligator swim by. He decides to jump in and wrestle the fucker. I think he's an idiot, as I watch him battle and get chewed up pretty good. Then he yells out "I'm gonna step it up--gulp--gonna really get on him now, just watch!" By the way all this time, I've been throwing rocks ant the gator helping out and encouraging my buddy to get the fuck out of there, to no avail. Both he and the gator are taking big hits. Now I notice he seems to be getting the upper hand on the beast. Great. Here's my observation so far as I watch:
I have always wanted my buddy to win.
I have always thought he was an idiot for choosing that approach to get across the bayou.
I have always helped him.
We STILL ain't to the other side yet, and there was probably an easier way.
If I recognize that he is doing better in the fight, that does not make me a hypocrite.
I still hope its over soon.
The end.
After years of hammering the Bushies for selective quotation, you guys turn around and do the same thing!
That half of the Iraqi government hates the other half and wants them dead is not news. Not for at least two years.
And all Murtha was doing was CYA: after literally months of denigrating the so-called surge, he was confronted with unambiguous evidence that it *was* working. He had to say something to save his sorry behind.
Don't get me wrong here: a day without sticking it to Lou Dobbs is a day wasted.
And then there's Mr. Olbermann, who has his own spin-cycle going on. And that is the reason for this post: you're contrasting relative slime levels, and that gets tired pretty quickly.
The last two CNN debates should’ve removed all doubt as to their liberal tendencies.
Yeah, that's why CNN replaced Glenn beck with Rachel Maddow - in Bizarro World.
Dennis @ 10:
Thanks for a good laugh. Ever hear of Glenn Beck? Nancy Grace?
hey, dennis if the media was liberal, do you really think this brain dead moron would have ever been president? the day he went to bob jones u. a liberal media would have annilated him, instead they embraced him.
Peter @ 13:
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!
Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.
Now, back on topic: Dobbs had two Republican shysters and one sensible individual at his roundtable, and in the mainstream media, that is representative: Two shysters to every one realist.
Nicely done Jon Soltz, nicely done. So on point, does not fall for the ThugliCon trick trying to make Dems play defense. Offense on the message that political reconciliation, is still a failure. Political progress is the true objective. Do not let them fuck up the conversation with their diversion tactics. ThugliCons are such creeps. Such.
Yes, of course I notice. But Nicole, what a waste of energy to point out that Lou Dobbs is biased and willfully stupid. Why not move to the next stage?
Democrats wanted the surge to fail!? I don't think so, and what a disgusting thing to say. Meanwhile Republicans are the ones wanting the surge to succeed if only because it let's them say "I told you so." If it means less soldiers are dying or things are improving for regular Iraqis, well that's a nice biproduct, I guess. The party that put more soldiers in harms way (and keeps them there) just to score points in an argument or not have to admit that they are wrong. Blood-handed bastards!
Folks, this is just another example of the slippery slope we're on right now. We're in a downward spiral and it will take CHANGE and SACRIFICE to pull out of it. The party's over, and getting that agent of change in the White House will be no cake walk. The righteous right wing Republicans will not let go easily.
Go to bluestatements.com to help spread the sanity.
Lou Dobbs is a racist and I've never known any racist to be too smart. CNN really does seem to be in a race to "outfox" Fox. And, unforturnately, we don't seem to have any clear headed Democrats that can counter this bull. None seem to have the guts to demand a more balanced media or even talk about it. No wonder this country is so screwed.
The only reason the surge is "working" is because
Iraqis have learned to hate Al Qaeda more than
they hate Americans, which is considerable.
We won. Time to go home.
That's it. We serve no purpose being there.
The U.S gov't also needs to relocate a few million
Iraqis, and figure out how much we owe the Iraq
nation in compensation for the monstrous things
done to them.
Al Qaeda is basically a heroin smuggling enterprise
at this point -- and the ever popular boogeymen
exploited by cowardly politicans and media moguls.
Dennis @ 10:
Dennis, you know I like you, but this is laughable on its face. If CNN was truly "liberal" why were there NO questions on liberal issues at the debate? Why no Universal Health Care? No question on the sub-prime market crashing? All the debate had was Republican bumpersticker questions of God, gays and guns.
Moreover, I don't WANT CNN or MSNBC to be "liberal". I want that myth gone. I want REAL journalism. I want the full quote that Murtha gives. I want background to know if he's right or blowing smoke out of his ass to CYA. I want to journalists to ask soldiers on the ground (like Jon Soltz was) if it was an accurate assessment.
Facts are not liberal, Dennis. Shame on you.
The Republicans have the fax.
Without the fax they would be at a loss as to what to say.
Take away their fax machines and we win.
Many war supporters have been claiming lately that the surge is "working", and that the Democrats and media are afraid to report this. What the war supporters are afraid to report is that the success of the MISSION is nowhere to be seen, if that were so, they'd be shoving that claim in our face.
..he was confronted with unambiguous evidence that it *was* working.
Unless of course you consider the evidence that violence is down because "ethnic cleansing" has been accomplished, or unless you consider the evidence that many Iraqi's are returning to Iraq because they've been kicked out of Syria, or you consider the evidence that the goal of the surge was to bring down the violence so the Iraq government could get its shit together and hasn't, I guess that's pretty unambiguous.
If I do A so the B will happen and after I do A, B does not happen, have I ultimately been successful? BTW, as the Iraqi's stand up, we'll stand down.
The goal posts on what constitutes military success in Iraq have been moved so many times that noone even remembers where they originally stood. So now what amounts to marginal military "progress" can be spun successfully by Bu$hCo as the greatest triumph since D-Day. And our "liberal" lapdog media dutifully transcribe the wonderful "news".
Nicole Belle @ 24:
Nicole, you know I like you too, but you're just wrong here. No offense.
The last debate was a Rebpublican Youtube debate. None of the questions bothered me and I'd be happy to listen to every one of the candidate's responses to ANY question that came up, right or left. But it's a primary debate and we are about to vote on who Republicans want to nominate to run for President- we'd like questions on issues that that Republicans care about on this one, not Democrat operatives that CNN conveniently announces they had no idea they were.
And if Keith Olbermann ever gives both sides of any story it will have been his first time.
If it's shameful of me to believe this, then so be it, but I think Keith Olbermann is about the most biased news disseminator on television today. He seethes hatred for everything Republican- can you tell me one person on TV on the right who was ever like that during the Clinton Administration? Can you tell me one person now on the right who is as rabidly obsessed with one person on the left like he is with Bill O'Reilly?
I would liked to have heard a question on the sub-prime market situation, btw. On both the debates.
If the surge is working as well as they say, then Dobbs and Murtha should have no problem going to Bagdad and doing a live broadcast outside the Green Zone to show it's effects. Those of us on the Left should call everyone of these dickheads on this. If its as safe as they claim then we would like to see it for ourselves, so go show us.
Of course we all know it's bullshit, but it funny how they carry on.
I'm waiting for Murtha to clarify what he ment.
I didn't hear any spin I heard him say the surge was working.
success is ONLY 30-40 soldiers a month killed.
talk about lowering the bar. we went from candies and a flourishing capitalist democracy that will spread like wildflower seeds across the middle east to..........
"we only had 20 soldiers die this month"
"second consecutive month with a reduction in deaths"
yippppee says the dead soldiers family, im sure they are ecstatic about how trivial this administration treats the life of an american soldier.
lip service isnt support, time to quit asking KIDS to die FOR NOTHING.
why are republinazis so concerned about poor iraqi people?
compassionate conservative, code for, "we will bomb youre babies".
I guess I got what I wanted.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Murtha_clarifies_Iraq_statement_113...
Dennisl
Kieth Olbermann isn't liberal, he's honest. You have confused the truth for a political bias. I have never caught him in a lie. Have you ever caught Bush in a lie? Or maybe Limbaugh or O'Rielly? And how many lies do they have to tell, and how many deaths do they have to cause before your ilk will finally wake up.
That's why you hate Media Matters because they keep track of exactly what your guys say and hold them to account. Dobbs allow a distortion of the facts, which is OK with you because being a republican is like being a fanatic sports fan. You back your team no matter how bad they screw up. For you it's all about the winning, not about the truth. If you wanted the truth you could find it. We do. Find the truth seekers and follow them. Boycott the coorperate media because we don't need them, and it's time they were maginalized.
Jackass Liars!
Re: Return of Iraqis to Baghdad. They are returning because they are getting kicked out of Syria and Jordan. They wont feed them anymore or renew visas. I hate stenographers and liars that pretend to be journalists. Iraqis are refugees in their home city because most cant return to their old neighborhoods without being killed.
Rushsucks - Apparently that's all anyone heard him say but he said much more. He did say that it looked like the surge had worked to give the Iraqi government a window to do their part and they had not done so. Iraq is still a clusterf**k but that "librul" media can't seem to wrap their minds around those conflicting positions, it could cause repug heads to explode all over Merika.
Dobb's and the republicans' conclusions make no sense. The first guy and Dobbs begin to make the distinction between political and military success, but everyone after them seems to be banking on that the Democrats will pay the price because the American people won't be smart enough to know the difference. You know people are being disingenuous when they start talking about political strategies in place of the issue. The Olbermann segment is much more coherent.
Why do so many people blame Democrats for this war anyway?
Dennis @ 29:
Nicole, you know I like you too, but you're just wrong here. No offense.
The last debate was a Rebpublican Youtube debate. None of the questions bothered me and I'd be happy to listen to every one of the candidate's responses to ANY question that came up, right or left. But it's a primary debate and we are about to vote on who Republicans want to nominate to run for President- we'd like questions on issues that that Republicans care about on this one, not Democrat operatives that CNN conveniently announces they had no idea they were.
And if Keith Olbermann ever gives both sides of any story it will have been his first time.
If it's shameful of me to believe this, then so be it, but I think Keith Olbermann is about the most biased news disseminator on television today. He seethes hatred for everything Republican- can you tell me one person on TV on the right who was ever like that during the Clinton Administration? Can you tell me one person now on the right who is as rabidly obsessed with one person on the left like he is with Bill O'Reilly?
I would liked to have heard a question on the sub-prime market situation, btw. On both the debates.
First off, a Republican complaining about planted questions??
Did I get that right??
Secondly,his seething hatred is for all things un-American, GOP just happens to fit that bill to a "T". And Bill O'Liely's OBSESSIONS are well documented. Whether it be un solicited non-consensual phone sex, Al Franken, Markos, or the much vilified George Soros.
So again, are you really serious ,our friendly neighborhood Troll?
And as for the sub-prime mortgage issue, of course you wanted to a question on that. That would be less time the RepubliNazis have to talk about he monstrous disaster that is the GOP foreign policy i.e. civil War in Iraq.
So of course you want to talk about something that everyone ,regardless of party line agrees on. Its easy. The hard thing is explaining to the american people why the blood of 3800+ soldiers isnt on the hands of every RepubliNazi in america.
Dennis @ 29:
Thats the patronizing troll position Dennis. When someone tells the truth on a story or busts the frequent half-truth bullshit pervasive in MSM, wingnuts bitch about fair and balanced. So when he says this person lied and heres the truth, what else needs to be added? An alibi? Another lie? An attack on a truthteller? What do you want Dennis?
Timb @ 37:
And they dont bother to mention the surge is over, there isnt a plan to replace the "Surge "troops.
Troop levels will go down, violence will go up.
So all we have to do is committ about 275,000 troops for the next 50-100 years and we will ONLY lose about 30 soldiers a day.
And that is the GOP's idea of success.
Timb @ 37:
Because Karl Rove said the Congress rushed us to war.
Dennis @ 29:
Okay cowboy, let's not let this Malkin-originated myth keep going. Kerr is NOT a Democratic operative. Until just recently he was a registered Republican and is still an active member of the Log Cabin Republicans. Unless you have the unmitigated gall to insinuate that perhaps Grover "Drown Government In a Bathtub" Norquist is a Democratic operative. I found Norquist's inclusion far more egregious for a "liberally-biased" network than Kerr's.
Actually, I've spoken with Olbermann personally. He seethes hatred for propaganda and dishonesty and stenography-disguised-as-journalism. It is simply that those who are doing it now have Rs by their name. Trust me, should a Democratic president pull the same stuff the current bunch of war criminals (and yes, you can quote me on that) have done in the last 7 years, he'd be right in their face too. He HAS had scathing words for the Democratic members on occasion, however, it's seems to be easier to gloss over that when it doesn't fit your characterization of a raging liberal.
Seriously? How about an entire network? FOX News ring a bell? And don't get me started on Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Mike Weiner Savage, etc, etc. You have SO MANY people on the right spouting hate and sneers at people on the left, often with no facts on their side ("the left wants the surge/Iraq war/GWOT to fail"? Really?) and yet you begrudge a little taste of your own medicine? Pretty thin-skinned, Dennis.
moondancer @ 39:
Lets just call his ilk what they are, conspiracy theorists. They believe there is a global conspiracy , traversing borders,languages and cultural differences. It would have to involve an minimum of , what maybe 100k people , to defraud and mis-inform the american people about the good work that the GOP is doing. Organized by George Soros on an Island shaped like a skull, where there are daily meetings to determine what every single television network will show.
Let's be clear to everyone: DENNIS IS NOT A TROLL
Name calling is not conducive to discussion and is not warranted.
and the Troll disappears back into his anonymous source ether....by definition unsubstantiated claims cant be substantiated folks.
Nicole Belle @ 44:
I would beg to differ.......
[Fine. Differ away. But Dennis is a respected poster on our site. And he's earned this distinction. Feel free to disagree with his ideas, but lay off the personal attacks-Sitemonitor]
Nicole Belle @ 44:
I know, I said thats a troll position and frequent argument. I didn't mean to insult Dennis.
hi
Nicole Belle @ 44:
I beg to differ.....
[deleted]
Nicole: By your own definition, Kulshan, you are being a troll. This conversation will not go further and either I or a site monitor will delete your attempts to start a flame war with Dennis.
Nicole-
I think you like to argue with Dennis and dont want everyone to scare him off.
I just called his b.s.
kulshan @ 49:
Kulshan, Dennis is a big boy and has been around here long enough to not need me to run interference for him. He's not scared off that easily. And we were NOT arguing. If you noticed, our posts were respectful to one another, although we don't share the same sentiments.
Yours, on the other hand, were trying to do nothing more than being antagonistic to him. I'm not sure why you feel the need to take this thread off topic with an attack on Dennis, but it's not appreciated.
We all agree that less death is a good thing! Believe it or not Lou, there are a few Democtrats in the armed forces, I have a feeling more every day.
We Democrats are more responsible for the limited success in Iraq. If we had not gained the majority in '06, Rumsfield (the greatest def.sec.EVER- according to Mc Cain etc.) would still be telling us about the amazing successes he sees every day that never get reported- painting schools, new hospitals being built, every terrorist that never was now in custody, in "non stress" positions, eating well balanced meals etc...
So take credit for stopping the hemmoraging (sic), "Operation Impose Law" (OIL) I'm not making this up, it is the actual name for the surge, will be a complete success in only another ten or fiftten years.
Dobbs has done a bunch of shows on the coming- North American Union and the Amero.
Cheers for that.
Everyone here is aware of those subjects, right?
oh so its ok to call em a troll.
kulshan @ 53:
me
The sad truth is, Bin Laden has already won. Even if he dies tomorrow, he has won.
Look what he accomplished with an army of 18 armed with box cutters.
American citizens have lost rights and freedom their forefathers have fought for centuries to protect. Basic "unalienable rights" like habeas corpus.
America has been bankrupted to the tune of a trillion dollars "chasing him".
America has lost the respect of the rest of the world by illegally invading Iraq.
America has lost, and continue to lose, thousands of their most patriotic citizens...the soldiers....who have been put in harms way under false pretenses.
America has become a country that rejects the Geneva convention and supports the use of torture.
And after Bush lead us down this dark path, we elected him again.
It is time for a REAL change in this country, but we all have to do our part.
We can't accept the candidates that the media is pushing down our throats.
We need the only candidate that voted against the war in Iraq.
We need the candidate that voted against our loss of the right of habeas corpus.
We need the candidate that voted against authorizing Bush to attack Iran.
We need the candidate that has the courage to Impeach Cheney for his crimes.
We need the candidate that puts American citizens ahead of the Corporations.
Dennis Kucinich 08 - America needs his leadership and integrity.
Dobbs always does the "prove I'm not a liberal" shtick
I'm tickled pink that violence is down in Iraq, but I don't see us leaving and living happily ever after any time soon. Is that what victory is, less violence at the tune of 12 billion a month?? Murtha's statement will not make one bit a difference to the American people about this war that most people are sick of.
What I notice is I can't get through a clip of Lou Dobbs, so soon after watch an o'Reeallllllllly clip
I saw Olbermann last night, so I went straight to Dobbs...
No contest here...Olbermann's was better.
An old liberal friend of mine who died recently told me 20 years ago that the conservative mind was deficient. They primarily, lack compassion and to varying degrees, honesty, multi-step logic and respect.
To watch these crippled minds sit around a ‘news’ studio and distort truth to the point of a friggin’ coward again calling Jack Murtha and the rest of my Party traitors is OBSCENE.
The same deficiency that was responsible for ‘ordinary’ citizens in Germany becoming executioners, pokes its face out at the rest of US every now and then and ‘WE THE PEOPLE’ better start paying attention.
An easily ‘lied to’ and ‘manipulated’ mind thinks that everyone is that ‘DUMB’, Lou, so the distortion of truth continues with a ‘smerk’ on their face.
Lou Dobbs redefines ‘surge’ and then applies his ‘new’ definition to distort Murtha’s
comments and ‘re-frame’ Democrats. These people are starting to sound like a ‘toilet backing up! If you believe this stuff, ‘Conservatives Without Conscience’ might help open your eyes to how much ‘help’ you need.
There are more of US then there are of them but WE have got to figure out how to become better ORGANIZED than them.
Ever wonder where the phrase, ‘The inmates are running the asylum’ came from – we’re living it!
princess @ 10:
Add another layer of tin foil to your hat, princess. Reich-wing paranoia is always worth a chuckle.
Amazing how, during the first 3.5 years of tragic failure, we were continually asked for patience to let the policy work. Now, after 2 months of improvement, the right is claiming victory. You'd think they'd be a little more hesitant given their track record on claiming victory!
Ed Rollins: "We have done our job." Clearly Ed was just back from Iraq - what, oh, I see... You say he has nothing to do with the military... hmm, what an ass.
Michael Goodwin: "What's surprising is how many people are moving back to Iraq." Really? Do you have any numbers on that? You think it might have something to do with no countries allowing them in? Have you been to Iraq?
What happens after Muqtada AL-Sadr calls a end to his Shiite Cease-fire? The one he started on Aug 29, just as the surge was fully implemented!
About the time the troops that already have been extended are supposed to be start coming home, what happens if he cranks it up full blast in March?
Any of you Fox News Sheep able to answer those questions?
Violence is down in Iraq? Are we still not counting people shot in the back of the head? Or was it the front of the head? I can't remember. One of those means of executing Iraqis by Iraqis didn't count as a casualty of war; therefore, not included in the statistics of violent incidents.
What a bunch of garbage to claim the surge is working. Like everything else they oversee, the bush administration just changed the rules of the game to make it look like they're "winning," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.
Dear American,
What amazes the world is that you all debate about this topic on winning a war! You are not in a war...you are in an OCCUPATION! Do you not realize that you can not win an occupation? Perhaps if you started debating this in terms of what it is, more Americans would be marching to end the occupation....something that is not win-able.
Stop calling this the "War in Iraq" and start calling it what it is "the Occupation of Iraq". The whole American mucho ego thing of winning can now be thrown out the window and real debate and plans can begin.
I hope the surge is achieving something, even a limited tactical success. I can see how pro-war types might feel the need to trumpet after so many months and years of bad news. But we still arent there yet and this whole thing was still a dumb fucking idea.
Step back and look at the big picture - Why would 30,000 extra troops make a significant difference when you already had 150,000 troops and another 150,000 contractors there already? (the 30,000 is mitigated by pullout of british troops)
IMO, after 4 years either the insurgents are tired of killing each other or they are just waiting to resume the killings at a later date. Or maybe this is just a game of statistics.
Since the politicians state the surge has worked, than start withdrawing troops now! Mission has been Accomplished!
Dennis @ 10:
lol... what you've described is an issue of degree... and apparently to you, any perspective further left than the equivalent of the taliban's form of conservativism is a "liberal tendency"...
Surge has to components. Now if one works the other fails we now call that success...The Surge was objected to because we knew the Government wasn’t going to compromise and by the way they told us that. Now how many more Americans lives will you sacrifice for Iraq Government?
ignorant.short-sighted.small-minded.narrow.stupid.f@$king.kying. diqueless. b@st@ards.
Instead of actually dealing with issues and creating solutions, your politicians bicker like schoolyard children. Told ya so-- no ya didn't-- yes I did-- na na, na na, na na.
OMG. Do these nuts really believe that Iraqis are returning to Iraq? Where is he getting his stats? He sure in hell didn't cite any report. And why keep harping on the lefts don't want the "surge" to work. Counting toe tags ain't winning anything. How can lou state that policymaking and war are mutually exclusive? How can he be so fucking stupid and keep that smug tone?
Of course chimpy wasn't going to train Iraqi police so they can sustain their own way of life. Why would chimpy want to? he can't make any money that way.
chimpy's logic: lie to the Iraqi people and tell them that US presence/occupation is the only way he will protect his puppet regime.
AND THIS IS NOT A CRIME?
did lou dobbs use the caveman lawyer defense? even if corporate schmucks aren't into reading clausewitz i thought they had to read sun tzu...
Murtha probably shouldn't of said anything. You give this straw grasping Repubs anything and they spin it immediately to their advantage. As Jon Soltz said you put the best military in the world in large numbers in Baghdad and sure the violence will go down. It's a band aid fix and not a long term solution. It's like putting thousands of police in the worst US city neighborhood. Sure violence goes down but you can't keep them there forever. Bush knows only military might not anything else. Look at the none success his state department has had over the years. Condi. has really done nothing other then photo ops. Bush's latest attempt at diplomacy in Israel is only a last ditch effort to save his legacy. Thats quite obvious as he didn't seem to care about this until now.
Edwin @ 73:
Pretty much reflects American society.
The Dobbs clip was the most schizophrenic clip I've seen him do.
At the start, he points out the obvious, that the military