60 Minutes: Reverend Canon White says: The situation is clearly worse in Iraq now for Christians
By Logan Murphy Saturday Dec 01, 2007 9:25pm
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Scott Pelley's disturbing report on 60 Minutes shows just one angle of the carnage that continues in Iraq despite the surge -- the cleansing of Iraqi Christians. Pelley interviews Andrew White, a minister who suffers from Multiple Sclerosis and runs one of the few remaining Christian churches left in the country. Transcript:
The situation now is clearly worse” than under Saddam, White replied.
"There’s no comparison between Iraq now and then," he told Pelley. "Things are the most difficult they have ever been for Christians. Probably ever in history. They’ve never known it like now."
"Wait a minute, Christians have been here for 2,000 years," Pelley remarked.
"Yes," White said.
"And it’s now the worst it has ever been," Pelley replied.
White is forced to hold his services underground (you won't see many adult males as they have all been killed or driven from the country) and risks his life every day to help his parishioners and says life for Iraqi Christians is infinitely worse now than under Saddam. Many Christians who are lucky enough to make it out of the country alive end up in Syrian ghettos, still fearing for their lives and with little hope for the future.
The Bush administration and our liberal media tell us the surge in Iraq is working, but the world knows that is a lie. The surge may be helping with security in some parts of the country, but it has come with immeasurable costs to the people of Iraq in the form of ethnic cleansing and a humanitarian crisis for many millions of people, that should anger and sicken us all. Of course, the plight of Iraqi Christians are just part of this appalling tragedy. Iraqis of all faiths are still being slaughtered and driven from their homes and country daily, by a civil war we allowed to happen and continues to rage on, uninterrupted by the surge.
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!so sad!
Well, finally, the media is covering the story. I started reading on the Christian blogs over 6 months ago.
What Saddam protected George W. Bush could not.
Our Dear Leader inaction.
-GSD
I wonder how the Jews there are making out.
barbara @ 2:
Ditto. I feel ashamed for actions I couldn't prevent, no matter how hard I tried, & dammit, I tried hard. Your actions supposedly on behalf of us all damn you, BushCo, there's no mistaking it...
The BA won't let religion or human suffering of any kind get in the way of its profit margins. They'll kill babies to get their pay.
Man, these are some kind of brave people. I hope their courageous appearance on 60 Minutes doesn't get more of them killed.
Many thanx George W. Bush [asshole of the ages]
On top of every other outrage the Bush gang have perpetrated, failure to provide security in an occupied country is called a WAR CRIME.
These guys don't care about people. They are totally committed to corporate profit and greed. Take a look at Michael Moore's short history of our "involvement" in other countries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVetMKcWhA Bush and these guys don't care about religion any more than how they can use it to control people and get their way through the use of it. I'm sick of this crap. I hope more people will start speaking freely, including myself, about the obvious crimes and criminal nature of these people in control of our government. It would be cool if we could rid our government of these A-holes. Many crimes have been committed. Osama is not being pursued. Iraqi oil is being pursued. Our military bases and embassy there make it obvious to those willing to admit it. Our Press has failed us. Let's do what we can do to turn this awful tide. Peace.
Christians in America need to follow the example of fellow theologian Dr. David Ray Griffin and start telling the truth about our very Un-Christian Gov't and Actions. Damn it. The suffering.
Bookem Danno @ 8:
Not to mention that unprovoked invasion and occupation of another country on a gaggle of lying pretexts is considered in 'BAD TASTE'.
Let's call a spade a spade.
I have been watching this from Europe for years and then watching it from the perspective of the news here in the United States.
Anyone here ever heard of Bethlehem?
Anyone here remember the Palestians who holed up in the main church in Bethlehem while under the Israeli gun? Probably not because that was on Euro television.
Everyone calls it the Holy Land but everyone misses the point that this includes CHRISTIANS.
I have always found it beyond shocking that any mentioning of the Holy Land or Iraqi, Lebanese or Syrian Christians just gets the boot when it comes to reporting the news.
Bullshit.
Could it be that the reason christians in Iraq are having a 'bad time' is because the nation they live in has been invaded, assaulted, and is being destroyed, and it's native citizens massacred, by a 'Christian Nation', based on pretexts of lies, and without provocation?
They should consider converting to reality, or rationality.
re the question about iraqui jews above-they were a large community until the establishment of israel caused an upsurge of antisemitism and almost all of them fled to israel-minus their belongings and wealth. israel has assimilated almost all the jews who were driven out of arab lands-unlike the palestinians who have not been granted citizenship in arab lands where they have resided for sixty years,
Bush, that avowed Christian has never stood up for Christianity in the middle east where it's home remains.
Why is that?
The fact that 'Minister' White is alive, and able to do a 60 Minute show, is testimony that the Iraq society is much more civilized, and compassionate, than the so-called 'christian' nation that attacked them.
Preacher Boob @ 15:
Not.
The Christian communities all over the world are routinely ignored. We say we are Christians but we do not behave in that manner by any stretch of the means.
Pat Robertson spends all day, every day recruiting money from his viewers to help Russian Jews trying to immigrate to Israel.
Why is that?
Imagine what would happen to, and in, US Muslim mosques, if the Muslims were somehow able to invade, attack, and dominate the US as the US is doing in Iraq.
Talk about 'Blood on the Rugs'! The CrazyChristianFundamentalistEvangelicalBornAgainBoobRapturistZionists would finally be able to let loose their pent-up, 'god'-given, 'Good Book'-authorized, blood-lust, in honor of 'The Prince of Peace', their 'savior'.
They'd have contests to see who could collect the most Muslim Ears, or Scalps, those 'devout' christians would.
E.T. @ 16:
What's the significance of the 'Not'?
You have to decide what is more important, these people and their religion or the oil. I think we all know the answer to that one.
Preacher Boob @ 17:
I see what you are saying but in that case let's just chuck the entire farce of being a Christian nation in the first place.
It wasn't true then and it most certainly isn't true now. God help the real believers because they are being sold down the river in ghastly amounts of blood. And they mail in money to do so.
It's a crime against humanity which certainly was never the intention of Jesus Christ or any of those who beleive and want to practice The Good Book.
From GSD: "What Saddam protected George W. Bush could not."
Or would not. This is grist for the Fundy mill. They can be counted on to make the most of this and turn it into a call for another Crusade. After all, persecution of Christians by Muslims in the Holy Land was the excuse for the First Crusade.
The pajamas medians, Clear Channelites and Foxies claim to be Christians but they are waving the pom poms for the persecution they have aided against people of their faith
Preacher Boob,
Apologies. I misread your comment.
E.T. @ 14:
The cost benefit study they did on them did not turn out with a positive cash flow.
Let's see, according to this summary, what's happening to Iraq now is much worse than what happened under Saddam. And what's happening in the US now is much worse than what was happening when Saddam was alive.
Hmmm. A rational, logical conclusion would be that what Bush has done has resulted in a much worse situation than what Saddam did.
Therefore, Bush is much worse, much more 'Evil' than Saddam'.
That's Bush's legacy, and should be engraved on his tombstone. (Or a plain wooden plaque, whatever's customary for the grave of an executed Impeachee)
In essence, Bush is responsible for murdered Christians.
Since Bush isn't going to heaven ... he might as well be Excommunicated!
bmw 528 @ 24:
Sadly...RIGHT ON.
Can Americans PLEASE STOP LOOKING SO FUCKING STUPID to the rest of the world?
Everything in the name of Christianity is so easily dissected, I cringe. And so should every citizen.
Anyone who is well traveled just dies a thousand deaths at this kind of totally obvious propaganda.
True acclaimed Christians would just shrink in shame..or one would hope.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the Iriaqi Christian faction had control of any oil. Oh, they don't. I see. So who gives a fuck?
See how things really work now?
ET. there are many in this country that are neither stupid or naive. The bush adminstration stole two elections, and has violated many laws in this country, including wiretapping all citizens without warrents.
They control the media because a few corporations run the "news" devisions.
we are now no different than Nazi Germany... they had the S..S....we have Homeland Security.....
only 30 percent of the population support Bush..the rest of us are truly scared about it, and it is easy to be intimidated....
So no 70 percent are not stupid....
E.T. @ 28:
Hey E.T. to stop looking stupid they would have to stop being stupid. That's difficult when the leader of the country believes the world is 4000 years old and that a grey bearded man in the sky tells him to kill hundreds of thousands of people. This is one really fucked up place dude.
But before I get all down on how moronic, lazy and gullible the average American is, why don't we look at Christianity in Europe for the last 2000 years. Hmmmm.. not a very pretty picture, was it? Europeans kind of fucked over the entire world and spread their own version of insanity to the world. Made people kneel down in front of an idol. Stole all their wealth, raped the women, killed the men, enslaved the children. And that's just what they did outside of Europe. We could go on for days about the burning, the whipping, the Iron Maidens, the forced confessions and then the obligatory execution by some drunk guy with an ax.
I'm not sure what European country you came from, but I'm quite sure it has a history soaked in blood and torture and ignorant subjugation to the state form of Christianity. You might think Americans would have learned from the thousands of years of European mistakes, but some things you have to learn the hard way.
Oh, BTW, I don't know what true acclaimed Christians you are talking about, but in my travels around this globe, real Christians are blood thirsty war mongers just like all the other humans regardless of religion.
Mission accomplished!
Neither side of the "Muslim/Christian" football game is going to be happy until everything is burned down over some deprecated, unevolved superstitions.
Looking forward to how the hate machine's gonna spin this...
Worst president in 2000 years?
susan g @ 13:
Eastern Jews, also known as, Mizrahi Jews, who immigrated from Arab countries and into Israel after 1948 were treated like scum by European Jews. They lived in tents, they were sprayed for lice when they got off the airplane and they spent the rest of their lives being treating like crap by the European Jews who immigrated to Israel.
Not much has changed in the last 60 or so years. When it comes to discrimination it's a live and well in Israel. Don't kid yourself and don't come lying to people on here thinking no one's up to snuff on what's really going on. The Mizrahi Jews are still a tier lower than Ashkenazi (European) Jews. The Mizrahi Jews have always been considered and still are just good enough for physical work and nothing more. I'd like to know if a mother from Northern Tel Aviv (Ashkenazi Jews) would let her daughter marry an Iraqi Jew from Petach Tikva. Assimilated? Yeah, sure. Next!
As for the Palestinians in Arab countries, why should these Arab countries give them citizenship? Your comparison is quiet ridiculous. Israel was marketed to Jews worldwide as a haven for Jewish people. Last time I checked the Arab countries didn't exactly establish themselves just so that they can absorb thousands of Palestinians refugees fleeing their homes in Palestine (later to be called Israel). And why should these Arab countries give them citizenship? They were citizens of Palestine, some still have passports that bear the name "Palestine" from way back before 1948. These people remain refugees because the Arab countries want Israel to take them back and give them back their homes. If they were granted citizenship they'll be sure to stay in whatever host country they're in.
Uberlame @ 32:
As a group Americans aren't blowing people up in the name of Jesus.
susan g @ 13:
What a load of crap. Sure Israel will assimilate you a citizen ONLY if you are jewish. Oh how generous of Israel. Unfortunately for Palestinians in the occupied territories, they were never given the option to get any citizenship, whether it's an Israeli citizenship or a Palestinian citizenship... but I thought Israel was so generous with their citizenship? BTW, Jordan has given citizenship to Palestinians, and the Queen of Jordan is Palestinian.
CD @ 35:
Bullshit! Have you listened to Hagee lately? And there are a couple of hundred thousand dead Iraqis who would like to dispute you, if they could.
JustSickOfIt @ 31:
You nailed it! Plus, in my experience, the humans without religion exhibit the most humanity.
is anyone happy that the surge was not a complete failure?
for the longest time i've read on this site over and over again about how the surge just was not working and now it appears it "did work" (rather, "didn't fail") and now people here are saying oh it was never [i]about[/i] the surge.
i mean, remember when bush invaded iraq because of wmds and then later said oh it was never about the wmds?
some people accuse the bushco of not caring at all for the iraqi people then suggest that every american troop should be withdrawn by tomorrow, as if that wouldn't result in turmoil for iraqis.
ultimately i would like to think everyone wants the best for iraq, but has different views of accomplishing it. there are lots of reasons to suspect the neocons are not in this camp, but i'm suspecting the left wing nuts are also more concerned with other things.
I am an Athiest. I firmly believe, however that people have a right to belive in God and follow whatever path they feel is right to do so. I am as oppossed to religious persecution as i am to political, racial and sexual persecution. The Priest in this story is not only a man of Faith, but appears to be a man of good sense and courage. He has my respect.
As for us, the United States of America, well, there really is no other way to say it. We suck!
Barrett D @ 39:
You pretend that the US is not responsible for this. It is. I don't get you. You seem to think the US is somehow protecting the Christians and the Muslims. They are not. What are you trying to say, anyway?
E.T. @ 11:
excuse me....but when have christians ever been persecuted by the israeli government or people?
what the fuck are you talking about??
why dont you head over to some wingnut site so you can rant and rave about the war on xmas
Barrett D says...is anyone happy that the surge was not a complete failure?
Sorry, but it is a failure. The surge was to give the Iraqi government time to get their shit together and sign that oil law. Didn't happen. Of course maybe it didn't happen because the dipshit in the WH refuses to put timelines on anything.
"you won’t see many adult males as they have all been killed or driven from the country"
4 Million displaced. Over 1 million dead. Gee, I wonder why the death toll is down.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 42:
uncle joe mccarthy i think you misunderstood his comment.
xoites defends Constitution @ 41:
You pretend that the US is not responsible for this. It is. I don't get you. You seem to think the US is somehow protecting the Christians and the Muslims. They are not. What are you trying to say, anyway?
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
Preacher Boob @ 37:
Who's Hagee?
Barrett D @ 45:
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
My problem with your opinion is the phrase, "...iraq is indeed winnable..."
Winning countries is for children playing Risk.
Barrett D @ 45:
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
You think that our military is over there to make Iraq peaceful? We are there for business deals and oil. Do you understand that a million people have died for lies? Lies that were put out there so we could rape and pillage? We are staying not to insure "peace" but to insure our business investments. You then say, "if Iraq is winnable". Seriously? Define what it means to win an occupation.
Um. I don't see how this group of people being attacked, forced into hiding, driven away, and killed is any different or worse than the other million folks it happened to. Is the fact that they are Christians and (I assume) you are as well the reason why their lives (as I gather from the comments) are somehow worth more than others?
Tatarize @ 49:
There lives are not worth more than others.
With some luck though seeing this man interviewed will soften the hearts of some Republicans.
"winnable" - in the sense that iraq can form a stable democracy - one in which it can protect its own citizens. After the fall of saddam iraq needed 'breathing' room to figure out what kind of country it wanted to be. Islamic extremists didn't allow that to happen. now, if the surge is providing that little bit of breathing room then maybe iraq is 'winnable'. so really, now is the time for the left to be putting out their ideas for political reconciliation - since the republicans probably have no idea how to do that. (Eg, like getting other nations in the world to be co-operative). Maybe if the left were to show the world that iraq is not hopeless they could get it turned into a UN venture. Its clearly a US occupation with US interests. So whats your solution? What if it became an international occupation? I want to know, from your perspective how iraq can become a peaceful democracy. i'd rather spend time on such a discourse than tearing down bush at every corner.
Tatarize @ 49:
As stated above ( http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/02/60-minutes-reverend-canon-white... ) I am an Athiest. Pardon me if the lives of these people touch me just as dearly as the lives of any others.
What is your point? That people in this country, that people on this thread don't care unless the victims are Christians?
I disagree.
Barrett D @ 51:
You are full of shit. The only outcome that is truly "winnable" is a proxy state in Iraq that supplies the international oil cartel with lots of oil.
McDuff @ 34:
man....if you want to rehash history...get it right
jews of the mideast and spain (and parts of france) are sphardim....
and while it is true that some european jews practiced prejudice against their sephardi brethren, it is also true that they practiced great compassion, as when they airlifted thousands from yemen
and i suggest you look at israel today before you make blanket statements
thanks to intermarriage between sphard and ashkenazi jew, there isnt really any discrimination left
yes, there are still problems in regards to jews from countries like ethiopia, but even that is improving
xoites defends Constitution @ 53:
so wtf do you want? you act as if i'm saying i think bush will be the one to make iraq this awesome place. i haven't implied that at all. i'm saying if you don't want iraq to be a proxy oil state then get your ideas out there so it won't be. certainly i believe you have the best intentions for the iraqi people so instead of tearing down bush why not support ideas to make sure iraq doesn't become a proxy state, but rather its own state?
the surge is indeed working, if the goal of the war was to create another radical islamic state
as bad as sadaam was...he was a secular leader
bush is a retarded leader
20 years from now, when iraq is causing problems for the world, our children will ask us, "why did you elect this man...and why didnt you impeach him when you had the chance?"
and we will hang our heads in shame
navyswan @ 48:
To you Navyswan i can only say thank you for your input. You have a unique perspective i can truly appreciate.
To all i must say good night.
Barrett D @ 55:
If you want Iraq to be its own state then we have to leave, but you are talking about some kind of "winnable" fantasy.
You are not making a whole lot of sense.
xoites defends Constitution @ 44:
if i did, then im sorry
but that news story was indeed greatly reported here in the states
and so too are the degradations of syrian, lebanese and other christians in the moslem world
funny how not one reporter or politician questioned the new iraqi constitution that granted no rights at all to the christian population of iraq
btw, the christians of iraq are nothing like christians in america...there beliefs are much closer to the coptic church...which makes them true christians and not the faux holy rolers we are faced with daily
uncle joe mccarthy @ 56:
20 years? Do you honestly think we are going to be here in 20 years?
As anyone who has actually
kept up with what is going in Iraq knows, the FACTS are that while the 60 Minutes report WAS TRUE MONTHS ago, it is NOT true now.
Neil C. Reinhardt
,,
To all the Christian right-wingers. You know who you are. You support war and death in the name of Jesus and George W. Bush.
How does this story grab you?
uncle joe mccarthy @ 56:
wouldn't it be great though if we didn't have to hang our heads in shame? if america elected competent people to solve iraq? i like to believe in people coming together for the greater good. is it not possible we could do so for iraq? i see most of you just think its utterly hopeless there. great to see just how positive the american left is.
Barrett D @ 63:
Let me tell you something. Your idea of a positive outcome and my idea of a positive outcome are completely different.
You want a compliant Iraq that feeds us oil for our Hummers. I want to see the US sending humanitarian aid to Iraq for two generations as reperations, much as Germany does for all the nations involved in World War II to this day.
xoites defends Constitution @ 58:
but that wouldn't happen. extreme factions in iraq would make it hell for the iraqi people, then indeed you would have an islamic state. with oil and power. american troops leaving would cause a rise of iraqi suffering.
Barrett D @ 65:
Oh dear God! We wouldn't want any Iraqi's to suffer now would we?
xoites defends Constitution @ 64:
no, i want to see religious violence come to end in iraq. i want them to be a free and educated people. if i ever get a car i will get a hybrid unless hydrogen cars are available, for now i take public transit. i'm some right winger here to defend anyone. i'm a leftist canadian who sees a positive iraqi future at the very least possible. and if the right in america does it for the wrong reasons instead of the left for the right reasons you can kiss any chance of free health care or fair minimum wage goodbye.
correction: i'm NOT some right winger *
Barrett D @ 65:
Sorry, i meant:
Oh dear God! We wouldn’t want to see an Iraqi Islamic State now would we?
Barrett D @ 63:
Wake