Countdown: McCain Agrees With Bin Laden - U.S. Should Stay In Iraq
By Logan Murphy Monday Mar 24, 2008 11:01am
Senator John McCain has been in full spin mode over his surge in Iraq and lying about Iran's involvement in the U.S. occupation, and on Monday's Countdown, Keith Olbermann talks with IAVA's <corrected> Paul Rieckhoff about another whopper from the aging, war mongering GOP presidential candidate. During a campaign appearance in California, Senator McCain made a bold statement about the War on Terror that would have undoubtedly driven the wingnuts blind with anger and rage had it been uttered by a Democrat:
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"For the first time I've seen Osama bin Laden and General Petraeus in agreement. And that is, the central battleground and the battle against al Qaeda is in Iraq today, and that's what bin Laden is saying and that's what General Petraeus is saying -- and that's what I'm saying."
Senator McCain certainly got one thing right; Osama bin Laden relishes the idea of the U.S. being bogged down in Iraq for the next hundred years and continuing to serve as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda. The Bush-McCain surge is barely holding on by a thread and even in areas that were not part of the surge, such as Basra in the southern part of the country, where the president is expected to ask Britain to lead a NEW surge of troops in to quell a Shiite civil war that is raging out of control. Dick Cheney was reported to have said: "So? They Volunteered."
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Frist?
Look, he's right. The only sensible course for the US is to do exactly what Osama bin Laden says we should do. I think I heard that on a tape or something.
.
This proves it...
They're ALL on the same side.
.
Of course Bin Laden wants us in Iraq....they'll never find him THERE.
i'd like to know what else mccain agree with bin laden on...
psst, mccain, you are embarrassing yourself (again)
StevePam @ 4:
Good point!
Wow....McCain you wiley bastard, using Bin Laden to justify 100 more years of illegal war-makins...shrewd...very shrewd...ok..maybe just stupid.
Ain't no money in PEACE.
McCain should listen to that old saying that says quit while you're ahead. Stop now and drop out before he says or does something that is going to make totally out of it.
I was reading a post at Jesus' General and the General writes a post pretending to be McCain. At one place he mentions that McCain can't use a computer. With that is a link and the link takes you to a video of McCain being interviewed. The interviewer asks McCain if he uses a pc or a Mac. McCain answers that he uses neither, his wife has to handle the computer operations in his house. So we could have a president who can't use a computer. How sad and embarrassing would that be?
Didn't bin Laden talk about defeating the US by crippling the country economically?
Isn't McCain suggesting that you hand bin Laden exactly what he was hoping for?
Bushco has already given bin laden just about everything he demanded in his fatwa,, why not this?
Max-Hussein-1 @ 3:
Well it's sure as hell getting pretty hard to argue otherwise.
They're either on the same side, or the righties are ridiculously stupid. And much as I do believe some of them are stupid, I don't believe they're ALL *THAT* stupid.
If everyone finally agrees that the war against al Qaeda is now in Iraq, it can only mean one thing - invade Iran!!
Jeez, what happened to my words?
That originally read. Stop now and drop out before he says or does something that is going to make him appear to be totally out of it.
TeeVee will fix it.
when al qaeda attacked us on 9/11, i don't they could even imagine it would turn out this good for them.
Spoon:
Here comes the man from the stars
We don't know why, he goes so far
To keep on marching along,
beatin' his drum.
Thugs and stick and bats and balls
for nuclear dicks with dialect drawls
they come from a parking lot town
where nothing lives in the sun
Don't make me a target,
Don't make me a target,
No, don't make me a target.
When you reach back in his mind
feels like he's breaking the law
There's something back there he got
that nobody knows
He never claimed to say what he says
He smells like the inside of closets and stairs
The kind,
Where nobody goes
Don't make me a target,
Don't make me a target,
No, don't make me a target.
*closets under stairs"
Today on the Huffington Post (I call it the Huff) they have an article that says "McCain On Iraq: "We're Succeeding.
I Don't Care What Anybody Says""
Next to that article, on the right, says this "Critical Iraq Cease Fire Appears To Be Unraveling" with a photo of Al-Sadr, I think.
McClueless (is this #500?) and the Straight to Hell Express remind me a kid in middle school, holding his hands to his head, and screaming "No no I'm not listening!" If it's soooo much of a success, then why is Al Sadr and his forces engaging in civil disobedience campaigns?
If they leave the cease-fire and 20 more soldiers get killed this month, will that be evidence enough? Or will those "independents" have to show more sense than McSenile.
Its time for Bin Laden to bring out another tape. I wonder how much we pay him to do these tapes?
Eric in Ottawa @ 10:
Lets examine this....Bin Laden has said we should do as he says or we will be attacked again....so we should be proud of the Bush McCain knowledgability in keeping us safe.
pissed off patricia @ 13:
Maybe you just had a "senior moment". Kind of like those McLostIt has only a lot shorter.
The reason why Bin Laden (if he's still alive) likes it is because we are draining our treasury at the rate of 12 billion a month. I honestly believe repugs like Bush and McSame have the same goal of draining our treasury for a different reason.
Repugs want to de-fund our gov't to the point it becomes useless and then they can claim gov't doesn't work and use it as a reason to finish off what's left of the New Deal.
Wow.
This old guy has lost it.
greg @ 20:
Maybe he can get a gig with FOX News. All the other terrorists work there.
I hope Gordon Brown tells Busholini to go Cheney himself!
Whats the Dem Platform?
Anything?
How come McCain takes on board some things Bin Laden says but ignores others ? like the reasons why he/al qaida attack the US.
I like it how the neo-cons pick and choose what to believe from Bin ladens mouth.
If we give him a beat down there it will weaken his message everywhere else..
Interesting now foreign countries are looking to outsource jobs to the U.S.
Whooooood a Tunk it!
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
American trade agreements have created a strange game of corporate musical chairs.
If you are able, tune into Air America, Thom Hartmann. New info on Cheney’s trip to the Middle east.
Recommended.
I think Sun Tzu said something about who you should allow to pick the battlefield, and if memory serves it very much was NOT your enemy.
L.A. Confidential @ 27:
Each candidate has their own ideas, but both are agreed on one thing; leaving Iraq.
So What, nany nany doo doo!
hillary isn't going to leave iraq.
Bin Laden and the Al Queda jihadists beat the USSR in Afghanistan by forcing them into a long and expensive occupation. This was a substantial cause behind the fall of the USSR. Now they have us in a long and expensive occupation. If you don't think they see parallels here and aren't trying to beat us by dragging us into a fight we will not be able to afford for a generation then you are blind.
Bin Laden only killed 3000 americans.
BushCo has already killed 4000 in Iraq and squandered $2,000,000,000,000.
Doesn't it sound like Bin Laden persuaded them to do a lot more damage than he ever could?
You can bet he's wanting McCain to be the next president!
McSame/OBL '08! They'll "root" out those evil doers...
AgentX @ 34:
Thats what they said when they took the Senate.
So like, what they waiting for. The earth to stop spinning?
ShouldBeWorking @ 33:
Other wisdom from Sun Tzu:
"When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
"Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
"Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue."
"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."
Michael @ 37:
They ain't stupid, that's for damn sure.
L.A. Confidential @ 40:
I love comments like that... it makes me wonder... why hasn't victory came as quick?
It's not like we can just pick up and leave... If we leave too quickly, the situation between the Shias and Sunnis would dissolve into a prolonged regional conflict that would draw in Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Sudia Arabia. That'll be a bigger mess than we could contend with.
Michael @ 37:
And I thought it was Reagan that caused the fall of the USSR. (what a joke)
Yes, we are going broke. And these boneheads are going to vote for McCain if Hillary is not nominated. They would rather have 4 more years of war and 4000 more lives, and trillions of dollars waisted, and a majority right wing Supreme Court than vote for a black man because of snippets from his preacher. IDIOTS
YourMom @ 38:
mom?
anyhoo...
just a slight correction:
Bin Laden only killed 3000 americans.
BushCo has already killed 4000 american troops, 1,193,480 civilians and an unknown number of contractors/mercenaries in Iraq
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 42:
The great irony of it all: We helped and armed the Taliban (which later splintered off Al Qaeda) in Afghanistan.
the Three Stooges were smarter than these three. How can we have such morons in charge of our country? Why won't congress do a damn thing to stop this slaughter?
You know, I think we have been had?
McCain will likely get a boost from Bin Laden's endorsment.....Patreus I'd watch out....McCain may dump you and get Bin Laden to help us fight the real enemy....you know.....Al-Qaeda in Iran.
20 minutes ago
NEW YORK - A federal appeals court has rejected a law requiring airlines to provide food, water, clean toilets and fresh air to passengers trapped in a plane delayed on the ground.
Osama's dead! I suppose then that Petreaus and McCain are using their spiritual guides to speak with him?
commie @ 36:
I didn't know she was over there.
L.A. Confidential @ 49:
source?
Cheney: 'So? They Volunteered....'
Exactly how politicians destroyed their national armys. All volunteer armies in 1914 fought in the first wave of European battles , drafted later the young and strong next came to be pulverized into the many battlefields. The armies were firstly professional soldiers, their deaths by 1918 were long forgotten by same politics of ignorance.
Dr. Acula @ 52:
http://tinyurl.com/33u335
ThunderMonkey @ 43:
that is highly debatable.
the notion that 'if we leave all hell will break loose' has been mentioned a lot and is repeated ad nauseum by members of both parties. but... is it accurate? some don't think so. many, me included, believe it is just (another) excuse to keep troops in iraq indefinitely.
"According to the Iraqi mainstream narrative, the foreign occupation is the major reason and cause for violence and destruction. Foreign intervention is not only destroying Iraq's infrastructure, but it is also splitting Iraq's formerly integrated society. In addition, Iraqis are fighting among each other over fundamental questions about the future of their country, but the central conflict is not between Sunnis and Shiites, it is between Iraqi separatists and nationalists. Unlike other countries in the region such as Lebanon, the Iraqi sectarian tension is still reversible, because it just started five years ago. More importantly, it isn't main driver fueling the Iraqi-Iraqi conflict. This "hidden" conflict is between separatists and nationalists.
Simultaneously, the government managed to manipulate many people on the "left" into believing that a U.S. withdrawal would cause unprecedented bloodshed. "The invasion was not a good idea" some would say, "but now that we are there, let's fix it before we leave."
From an Iraqi perspective, both groups promote interventionist foreign policies that have no respect for sovereignty, independence, or international law. On the one hand, the best way to guarantee that no al-Qaeda or other extremist organizations will exist in Iraq is to let Iraqis rule the country by themselves. They have been living in Iraq and ruling it for the last thousands of years, and unlike the occupation authorities, they have been successful in protecting Iraq from the intervention of foreign countries and organizations."
http://www.alternet.org/story/80469/
i have come to reject the idea that w/o american presence the iraqis will go into full-blown civil war. maybe they will, maybe they won't. but the idea that it is a given is highly suspect. with so many other issues surrounding this massive clusterfuck it is hard to trust the word, guidance, opinion or judgment from anyone in the govt, media or corporate world. everyone has an angle, some alterior motive for saying that they say. oh yeah, and most of the "experts" the msm and the govt roll out are complete fools.
L.A. Confidential @ 54:
Thanks. It was a NY State law, so now if you're stuck in a plane on the tarmac in any of the 50 states, you can suffer.
Countdown: McCain Agrees With Bin Laden - U.S. Should Stay In Iraq
How else will terrorists get their live-fire training?
andy: So true. I remember that when dismissing Ron Paul's analysis, Rudy Thiuliani said we shouldn't pay attention to Bin Laden's professed reasons for attacking us because "they were just propaganda". However, terrorists' talk of establishing a worldwide caliphate is by no means propaganda; why, it could happen tomorrow!
What also gets me is that the repigs don't care enough about Bin Laden to catch the motherfucker, but they care enough to quote him whenever possible. (Some may say this contradiction is by design, though I attribute it more to incompetence.) Maybe we can invite Osama stateside and give him his own calendar? Repigs can tear a page off each morning, and echo an anti-American nuggest of wisdom! It'll be like a cup of coffee, but in Jihadist paper form!
Dr. Acula @ 51:
She's a camp follower?
I'm sure someone else has also figured out how the surge is wurkin' for the Republicans and not the Troops. It's the ol' shell game, you know hid the pea. While the Dems are lookin' for the pea the election and more democracy could be over. Same thing on the economy, lower interest rates and smooth out a few economic wrinkles and at the last minute before the 08 election raise rates several times and economy will not completely stall until after election. Who can not see this?...and why are the Dems not talking about this?
60 henry walace
A shell game where the object is to see who can shuffle off their mortal shell fastest.
oldtree @ 47:
We're all on our own now. Poisoned food, poisoned air, poisoned water, no worker safety. Bush and the Repubs have destroyed government and it's oversight duties to it's citizens. All we have now are unscrupulous corporations doing whatever they please with zero government oversight. This is what you get when you elect Repubs. The Return of the Dark Ages and the Wild West, where you are on your own and you better be quick with the trigger because everyone is armed to the teeth.
Here, as evidenced by this clip from Countdown, does one see the blatant hypocrisy of Paul Rieckhoff, which also ties into to John Amato's very relevant past post on liberal war hawks. From the tape, one sees Rieckhoff [justifiably] criticize what is happening in Iraq by noting the "human costs" of the war. But when Olbermann asks Rieckhoff to reflect on the 4000 Americans who have been needlessly killed in Iraq, Rieckhoff begs off on Olbermann's question, claiming that "they [the soldiers] don't worry about the mission" and that he does not wish to be concerned about the politics concerning Iraq, as if there should be some moral distinction between the soldiers being killed while not, for some bizarre reason, daring to question why they are being sacrificed. Rieckhoff would not address Olbermann's point as to whether those soldiers have been sacrificed in vain, which puts Rieckhoff in the untenable position of criticizing the Iraq occupation while not willing to challenge the idea of why those soldiers' lives have been snuffed out for no justifiable reason.
Rieckhoff always wishes to draw attention to the fact that he belongs to Vote Vets and IAVA [ Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America] while never acknowledging that he does not belong to the IVAW [ Iraq Veterans Against the War], an important distinction to make, as Vote Vets, while being a commendable organization, does not, like the IVAW, call for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. soldiers from that quagmire in Iraq. Those in the IVAW are the true heroes of this country, because they recognize that they would be participating in an illegal and immoral occupation of a sovereign country. Apparently the last thing that this liberal hawk wishes the soldiers to do is what the last lines of the poem by Bretolt Brecht, General Your Tank Is a Powerful Vehicle, advocate:
General,man is very useful.
He can fly and he can kill.
But he has one defect:
He can think.
Rieckhoff laments the fact that more soldiers are filling up VA hospitals across the country but seems unable to see the forest for the trees. More soldiers will continue to end up in Walter Reed and VA facilities as long as those troops are placed needlessly in harm's way. I strongly suggest that it is time for Rieckhoff to view the documentary Sir! No Sir! [which chronicled the GI movement during the Vietnam conflict] in order to comprehend the fact that soldiers have a right to question and challenge the military and the government for sending them to fight a war that was based on lies. If those in the U.S. military continue to blindly accept what they are told, then they will end up fulfilling the line in Tennyson's poem: "Into the valley of death" rode the 158,000, dying not for a noble cause but rather, despite what Rieckhoff seems to infer, for an empty and lost cause based on falsehoods and lies.
ThunderMonkey @ 46:
Indeed...Kharma comin' back and bitin' us right in the hoo-ha.
Look, as long as McCain follows Bush's advice: We need to continue sacrificing more soldiers (and innocent civilians) so the the other soldiers who have been sacrificed will not have been sacrificed in vain. War is good.
Samson- @ 55:
I base my opinion upon my research into the conflicts that errupted during the late 1970s and 1980s in the region. These groups have a great tendency to go after each other when things become unstable. If the Iraqi government (both the Sunnis and Shi'as) grows a spine and starts to inject some control over its own country, then it wouldn't be the giant mess that many of the doom-and-gloom crowd tends to paint.
The Sunnis (while a minority) has subjected the Shi'as to great deal of punishment and strife while Saddam was in power. Most of the current blowback can/could be contributed to some sort of revenge factor. It has the potential to devolve into ethnic cleansing that would draw in the countries that are mostly Sunni and Shia.
liberallHUSSEIN 64
The great irony of it all: We helped and armed the Taliban..
Of greater irony..we are still arming the insurgents, and have them on the US payroll..fun times ahead huh?
A superdelegate votes for the candidate with the most popular votes and pledge delegates nationally. Rush Limbaugh helped Clinton win Texas and Michigan. Now Republicans have changed their affiliation from Rep to Dem in Pennsylvania so they can vote for Hillary and then vote for McCain in the general election. Hillary continues to argue about elect ability and continues to split the democrats. FOX will paint Obama as a racist and racist American will vote for McCain. More war and a right wing
Congress will follow. Does that help?
OK, so when will the Republican Party start clamoring for a do over? Or will they be taking care of this little problem at the primary? The day McOldAsDirt does his misspeaking of mass destruction and commits political suicide grows nearer every day.
If corporate America continually shits on the heads of the US citizens the people will eventually revolt....or if they don't revolt they will just drown in the shit and corporate America won't have any citizen slaves to work to death. Could be a lose, lose for corporations.
ThunderMonkey @ 66:
you, and the majority who hold this POV, could be right. although i can't seem to think of any situation in the ME that is analogous to the current one in iraq. but that is neither here nor there.
but, again, check out the article if you have a second, the idea that the struggle is not the sunni/shi'a and instead a separatist/nationalist split is an interesting theory.
"The U.S.-led invasion did not only destroy the Baath political regime, it also annihilated the entire public sector including education, health care, food rations, social security, and the armed forces. The Iraqi public sector was a great example of how millions of Iraqis: Arabs and Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites, Muslims and Christians, religious and secular, all worked together in running the country. The myth that the former Iraqi government was a "Sunni-led dictatorship" was created by the U.S. government. Even the Iraqi political regime was not "Sunni-led," let alone the rest of the public sector. A good way to debunk this fairy tale is through a close look at the famous deck of cards of the 55 most wanted Iraqi leaders. The cards had the pictures of Saddam, his two sons, and the rest of the political leadership which most Iraqis would recognize as the heads of the political regime. What is noteworthy is that 36 of the 55 were Shiites. In fact, the two vice presidents were a Christian and a Shiites Kurd.
Understanding these nuances of the Iraqi-Iraqi conflict reveals how the war is a political struggle that will end as soon as the U.S. withdraws, not a religious war that will intensify after Iraqis take their country back. The United States is not playing the role of a peace-keeping force, or a convener of reconciliation. It is seen by a majority of Iraqis as one side of the conflict and will never be a part of the solution."
the idea that the iraqis will self-destruct might be true, but it smacks of orientalism and is far too convenient as an excuse to keep troops in iraq.
and, might i genuinely add, i am not trying to infer that this is your intention at all.
Subject: Can We Learn From History?
Points to Ponder:
Subject: Democracy, How Long Do We Have ?
This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. The sad thing about it, you can see it coming.
I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is interesting to see it in print. God help us, not that we deserve it. About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier: 'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government..' 'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years' 'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage'
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts .
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the 'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
If you are in favor of this then delete this message. If you are not then pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.
I think Bin Laden also agrees with Bush:
"Fighting them over here so we don't have to fight them over there"
Paul @ 72:
The rest of the article may be true, but this part is just the new racism
Paul @72:
Current voters are actually pretty selfless in that they've voted these gifts to the oil companies and the Saudis -- out of their own pockets.
I would propose that the U.S. population is currently in the middle of a transitory stage you didn't list:
- From craziness back to sobriety.
It's a slow stage, so be patient.
Paul @ 72:
interesting, but it seems like a gross over-generalization, full of odd and cherry-picked data...
it is a risky endeavor to treat history as a cyclical beast
This is a bogus argument. Because, by invading Iraq, we already drew in Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia...all of Iraq's neighbors are now involved. It's already regional! The situation in Iraq is already civil war! Sunni and Shi'a have been and are killing each other. There may be a brief spike in the killing when we withdraw US troops, but that's not a good reason to stay.
Continued US involvement cannot be sustained. We can't sustain a presence militarily or financially. We must pull out. It's also what a majority of Iraqis want us to do. It's also the opposite of what bin Laden and al Qaeda want: They want a continued US presence in the Middle East. Because as long as we stay it enrages Muslims and Arabs.
There are no good choices in this unnecessary war. But withdrawing our troops as quickly as we can is the best option.
Samson- @ 71:
"the idea that the iraqis will self-destruct might be true, but it smacks of orientalism and is far too convenient as an excuse to keep troops in iraq.
and, might i genuinely add, i am not trying to infer that this is your intention at all."
I didn't know most of that. I would have to admit, that most of my research and studies were narrowly focused upon tactics of warfare in the Middle East.
I'm not surprised about the diversity of Saddam's cabinet (for lack of a better word) and political leadership. He was a secularlist with little or no love for extreme religious views.
Oh, and ThunderMonkey,
We have played a big role in creating the Iraqi civil war. For example: When we dismissed Iraq's army and installed a Shi'a puppet government. Our ongoing presence further exacerbates it.
Leslie @ 77:
Again... I base my opinion upon my own research into the the region, and not any talking point. Your simplified arguement against my simplification is about as bogus.
You're correct. Any nation cannot sustaing a prolonged conflict and our presence in the Middle East (military bases in Saudi Arabia) is the reason why we're in this conflict in the first place.
I'm not for a prolonged presence. However, we do have a certain level of obligation to help fix what we broke. I'm sure that if the Iraqi government became more proactive into governing its country and we took a role of simply policing and restoring the infrastructure and building hospitals and schools, but not constructing massive embassies and more military bases, the tone will eventually change.
We're seen as the aggressors and we become a decent target. Simply pulling out of the picture too quickly may/will cause aggression to shift and change inwardly.
We're seen as the aggressors because we are the aggressors. The US invasion and occupation is the cause for much of the violence. Yes, we do have an obligation to fix what we broke...and I believe the best way to fulfill that obligation is to leave asap. We can use regional diplomacy and humanitarian aid to stop ongoing violence, which the Bush administration has been reluctant to do in the first instance and corrupt in the second.
We shouldn't use fighting to justify our continued presence. When it's our presence that led to the civil war and Iraqi instability in the first place. And it's our continued occupation that's fueling much of the violence. This is why a majority of Iraqis want us out, asap!