Collateral Damage
By Cernig Saturday Aug 23, 2008 11:00am
There's a bit of a difference of opinion between NATO and Afghan authorities over the result of recent airstrikes.
American-led coalition forces killed 76 Afghan civilians in western Afghanistan on Friday, the interior ministry said.
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"Seventy-six civilians, most of them women and children, were martyred today in a coalition forces operation in Herat province," the statement said.
Coalition forces bombarded the Azizabad area of Shindand district in Herat province on Friday afternoon, the ministry said. Nineteen victims were women, seven were men, and the rest were children under 15, it said.
However, the coalition denied killing civilians. It said 30 militants had been killed in an air strike in Shindand district in the early hours of Friday and no further air strikes had been launched. Air strikes took place between 1am-2am after Afghan and coalition soldiers were ambushed by insurgents while on a patrol targeting a Taliban commander in Herat, the US military said in a statement.
...Saeed Sharif, a council member where the strike occurred, said: "Last night at 2am some people were attending a holy Koran recitation in Shindand district when Americans started bombing."
This isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened. What usually happens next is the NATO carries out an investigation and says it is in the clear while the Afghans stick to their story. Which makes me wonder about the disconnect between that absence of admission for culpability in individual incidents and the overall admission that airstrikes and shootings by coalition troops killed as many Afghans as the Taliban did last year. I'm sure Afghans wonder too - and then NATO wonders why the Taliban is resurgent.
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When did martyr become synonymous with murdered?
Damn....that sucks bigtime...wtf? Can't they get it through their thick heads than killing civilians is a VERY BAD THING!?!?
I don't see any insurgents in that picture, I see people. These poor souls have lost their right to live.
This is the most likely scenario.
Thursday afternoon, Afghan and coalition soldiers were ambushed by insurgents while on a patrol targeting a Taliban commander in Herat.
In response, between 1am and 2am Friday morning, Coalition forces bombarded the Azizabad area of Shindand district in Herat province, killing seventy-six civilians. Nineteen victims were women, seven were men, and the rest were children under 15.
The patrol was probably ambushed out in the mountains somewhere.
The retaliation was on a population center, probably the nearest town or village.
The purpose of the retaliation was to turn the locals against the "insurgents" by making the locals pay the price for the "insurgents" misdeeds. This is how war is these days.
The members of 76 more families just got a reason to become terrorists.
Think this will even make the ticker on the traditional media? I doubt it - it was just brown people after all.
take a good look this is why no one who believes in remaining in afganistan gets my vote!!!!!!!!
What part of the North Atlantic is NATO protecting by murdering these people?
Just curious.
When adversaries inflict similar collateral damage, our government and the media are quick to attribute it to deliberate ethnic cleansing. Ironic, isn't it?
Karzai fires commanders over civilian deaths
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/24/afghanistan.fighting/
What's up with THAT? Couldn't they find another wedding party to strafe?
Sounds like the policy of "Schreklichkeit" used by Nazi Germany. Ambush a Nazi patrol car = bomb Rotterdam. Ambush a Nazi soldier = eradicate Lidice from the map...
US military standard operating procedure: drop bombs; kill innocent civilians, mostly children (preferably in a wedding party); release information that X number of "militants" were killed (pilots could tell because of t-shirts on children saying "Taliban militant"); Afgani ministry takes eye-witness accounts and says mistake was made and civilians were killed; US military refuses to acknowledge mistake, opens an "investigation" (see previous unfinished "investigation" of wedding party bombing); discovers a "rule" after the fact that says the "rules of engagement" allowed bombing there and was all perfectly "legal". No mistakes were made, and if there were, we're sorry, but in a war, stuff happens. No military person held responsible for killing children of allies. Rinse, repeat. Win friends and influence people. All in a day's killing.
Charles
hearts and minds and candy and flowers.
My guess, both NATO and Afghan authorities are lying out their respective asses, spinning whatever happened to suit their own story line and to gain whatever advantage. The truth is somewhere in-between.
I'm not familiar enough with the local Islamic practices, but a "2 AM holy Koran recitation"? Really? Come on? Try reciting the Koran during the day, in a freaking mosque or school.
A clue for innocent Afghanis, don't do stupid shit that will get your asses blown up. Seriously. Don't do it. You'll die. I don't care if it's a custom in your tribe, group, or culture, stop it. Once NATO leaves you can start again.
Afghan politicians, village chiefs, council members et al are slimy manipulative weasels. NATO forces are lashing out at times blindly, and causing massive civilian casualties. Both groups suck for the average Afghan just trying to get by.
Excellent post. Now if only someone in our less than intrepid media would ask Obama and his equally bellicose vice president why it is more acceptable to kill a man who is fighting for his country in Afghanistan than it is in Iraq. Obama, of course, wishes not to remove but to ADD approximately 10,000 more American troops to that beleaguered country which will do nothing to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. At least four times since 2001 have 500 lb. bombs wiped out wedding parties in Afghanistan. Yet so many people perceive Obama to be an antiwar candidate as well as an agent of hope and change. I seriously doubt if the average Afghani believes that propaganda while much preferring to deal with the reality of American bombs being dropped on their villages and homes and families.
It's worth noting that the Taliban is more than capable of attacking from a population center and forcing the local population to stay put. This means either NATO must fight man to man, a decisive tactical advantage, or that US/NATO must accept high levels of collateral damage. It's a win - win for the Taliban, because people quickly forget that the dead were forced to stay in the building. Imagine if the local police bombed your bank because some robbers were holed up in there. Even if they were terrorists, we would not accept any unnecessary risks to civilians.
The right call is to absolutely minimize collateral damage, because then the Taliban loses local sympathies every time they do this. This is hard call to make on the ground though, because not using air strikes puts the US/NATO forces in a very dangerous spot. It wipes out all the technical advantages and forces you to fight your way in, with civilians everywhere. It's the curse of being the good guy.
It's not clear to me whether or not this is the case in this particular instance, but it's worth noting that in addition to all the other excellent reasons to avoid collateral damage, it's not any better for us tactically.
Erroll @ 14:
just look at it this waythe american people will be able to sleep better at night knowing some one elses wives and children are dieing !
The funniest part is that the media and Big Brother Corporate governments involved, now have convinced a majority of Americans including on here, that this is a war on Terra against those evil Taliban. Which is nothing more than a line of bullshit.
charles @ 11:
You're almost certain to be accused by somone of hating Murka for expressing such sentiments...so i'll save 'em the trouble and ask you, "Charles, whah d'ya HAYIT AMURKA???"
Dilapidus @ 15:
To reduce the amount of 'collateral' damage, and yet maintain the same effect as with indiscriminate attacks by bombs, you have to expose your troops to more fire, more casualties. No occupying Army wants to expose MORE of its troops to hostile fire. So 'collateral damage' is inevitable, and indistinguishable from homicide with callous indifference...
Sounds like the old Vietnam body counts.
woody, tokin librul @ 19:
the good guy keeps his ass in his own country,
"Afghanistan" does not exist except in the minds of Western MapMakers.
"Afghanistan" (and much of the Middle East) is a patchwork of tribal regions. Tribes who traditionally do not get along with each other have been pushed together into "nations" guaranteeing internal conflict to be exploited by outside powers, and powerful tribes have been split in half by "national boundaries" to weaken those tribes.
Standard operating procedure for the Imperial Powers that have carved up the region.
The "Taliban" are largely Pastun whose traditional tribal area has been split by the Pakistan-Afghanisan "national" boundary. So from their perspective the "cross-border attacks" carried out in "Afghanistan" from within "Pakistan" are simply their attempt to keep the Western Invaders out of THEIR traditional homeland.
Fundamentally that is why the US-NATO War in Afghanistan is destined to fail.
tyree @ 16:
I am strangely surprised at the number of Americans ...who know perfectly well the the war in Iraq is totally bogus/illegal and based on false (Neo-con fabricated) evidence...but yet, they strangely "accept" the "other war" in Afghanistan as being necessary to the "international war on terror"
Afghanistan is also big Neo-con lie but many just dont see it!
MountainMan23 @ 22:
Click for Map Of Major Ethnic Groups In Region
30 is a magical number!
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/08/around-the-hind.html
Brown people in multiples of thirty are always insurgents, regardless of how many child corpses are littering the ground.
If there is no video it didn't happen.
In fact even when there is video if DoD says it didn't happen it didn't happen: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec04/marine_11-16.html
Wow...we slaughtered yet more civilians in a foreign land that we violently invaded, and now occupy under the guise of bringing freedom.
Somehow, everyday we slaughter more and more innocent people, and we don't even consider for a moment that it might be US spreading terror and fear.
As long as the bombs and tanks and daily slaughter aren't here, rather "over there"...we just don't seem to care.
For the record, every single western/coalition troop that dies "over there"....DESERVES to die over there. They are not heroes, they are terrorists in uniform. They deserve to be face down in the dirt. They deserve the same treatment we give to those we are occupying.
We are not spreading freedom, we are spreading terror. Plain and simple.
To continually allow our forces to label every single innocent we slaughter as a so-called insurgent, or terrorist, shows just where we all stand morally.
Today's closing Olympic ceremonies have overshadowed one of America's most remarkable turn-a-arounds in modern competition. America has overtaken Saddam Hussein in the killing of unarmed, hapless civilians after two very successful air strikes in Afghanistan:
HERAT, Afghanistan (AFP) — An investigation has found that more than 90 civilians, mostly women and children, were killed in coalition air strikes days ago, an Afghan government minister told AFP Sunday. Most of the roughly 15 houses destroyed were those of men who worked at the airstrip as security guards, district chief La'l Mohammad Omarzai told AFP.
(snip)
In another recent incident, an Afghan investigation found that around 50 civilians, most of them women, were killed in coalition air strikes early July when they had gathered for a wedding in the east.
America now has an insurmountable lead for the Silver Medal and has openly said that Hitler’s lead for the Gold Medal is not necessarily out of sight. “We just need to buckle down and get the job done,” said an unnamed source who took five deferments to avoid the Vietnam war before being named “scum-sucking, yellow corporate lap-dog” for the bush administration.
-Subroutine, cub reporter
upchuckie_cheezits @ 13:
Stupid shit = attending weddings, driving a vehicle, being brown with intent to live in your own country. EWE ESS AYE, EWE ESS AYE!
upchuckie_cheezits @ 13:
Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and the forefathers of America, ...would be very disappointed in you upchuckie! ...and I hope your not in my platoon when Bush and Blackwater declare martial law!...go sit with the women and children and keep your hands to yourself!
This helps the terrorist cause.... therefore the U.S. military supports terrorism... out tax dollars pay for the military budget, therefore we all support terrorism. The only good people left in this country are the ones who don't pay taxes... "illegals".
A clue for innocent Afghanis, don’t do stupid shit that will get your asses blown up. Seriously. Don’t do it. You’ll die. I don’t care if it’s a custom in your tribe, group, or culture, stop it. Once NATO leaves you can start again.
You arrogant prick. Who are YOU to tell people what they should or should not do based upon the potential criminal actions of an invading force? This is exactly what fuels anti US hatred. But I'm sure you would have no problem living your life according to whatever threats are imposed upon you by some moronic twit who lives on the other side of the planet.
you can feel the love that the client Afghan gov (and occupied peoples) have for the outside forces protecting them !
Yet another case of nanny overstaying her welcome, and insisting that the grownup children are helpless and need their oil protecting.
Collateral damage sounds like you have to pay too much out of pocket expenses with your medical insurance.
Everytime a large number of people are killed in an airstrike, we hear that they were the bad guys. The truth is that airstrikes kill innocent civilians and we can never say with any degree of credibility that they don't, so it is lie to say that all the casualties were enemy. There also seems to a a culture that civilian casualties are just an unfortunate aside to victory. The truth is that every innocent that is killed makes a long term enemy from the extended families. The longer the War, the longer the emnity toward us.
What SANE country ,by what God given right, does anyone have the right to climb into an aircraft to bomb mothers fathers sisters daughters kids sons brothers uncles aunts cousins spouses and grandmom and grandpop, like John McCain has done?
Let us not forget the 10 French paratroopers who died from collateral damage delivered by NATO warplanes, also called 'friendly fire.' The US war machine is indiscriminate, and let's all hope that more of these incidents kill the trigger-happy invaders. The French now join the Canadians, Polish, and British in the list of countries who lost murderers to friendly fire. Remember the First Gulf War? Friendly fire killed almost 30 Americans. This indeed is friendly fire. In the Second Gulf War, US troops routinely kill themselves and their comrades (especially females) in the socio-pathic frenzy known as patriotism and the spread of democracy. All together now: KILL THE AMERICANS so they don't have to do it to each other.
Che's Lounge @ 32:
Che's Lounge
Well said. As you correctly point out, simply another example of American hubris being placed on display.
Airstrikes agaisnt Nazis in Germany were deliberately overshot at Normandy and Drestan, no doubt about it Bristish, Germany, Russia and US are all controlled by the evil bastard Jews.
here's what gets us slaughtered every election cycle as far as military strategy is concerned. democrats and progressives become overly hung up time and again on civilian damage totally ignoring strategic gains. (don't get me wrong here, the rethugs have a problem too, it's the 180 degree flipside of ours).
what we have to do is strive for a better balance. i'm not a stupid grrl, when i hunt (like the retard cheney seems to be). i *expect* and plan for collateral damage and make certain the payoff is worth whatever damage is incurred. in other words; you have to be responsible for what you shoot..."oopsy" don't cut the mustard dicky boy.
(the irresponsible jackass should have been arrested for shooting his friend.)
what i'm not seeing from the pentagon is any , *any* of the military strategic thinking or justification vs. al qaeda for the collateral damage we're doing in Afghanistan. ok champs, why are we there? if it's a good trade off cool, let's not get hung up on it.
but we should at least ask.otherwise we end up looking naive or worse.
"However, the coalition denied killing civilians."
"the coalition" ???
Why are such generic labels constantly used, such as "the coalition"? Is it to protect the criminal acts? Like the soldiers using "drop weapons"? To prevent investigations into the killings of any innocents?
Who EXACTLY is claiming, and taking the RESPONSIBILITY of making the false statment that NO CIVILIANS were killed, when it appears clearly the opposite?
Calling it "The coalition" names NO ONE. It puts NO NAME or FACES, into the hot seat of RESPONSIBILITY. If we don't know who is issueing these statements, NO ONE is ACCOUNTABLE for them!
*^#@*!!!! Everything is so freekin *^#@* VAGUE when it comes to ANY investigations, ANY hearings, ANY facts, ANY responsibilities or accountability!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is this the NWO way of giving us ....OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT FACTS & FINDINGS?
GEE! I DON'T RECALL,....ANYTHING at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE!
(an "officially" accepted statement, by highly paid officials, PAID to DO EXACTLY THAT! Run things, and keep track of things, WITH the help of gigantic over-staffed staffs to help them).
Try using the "I DON'T RECALL" excuse where you work.
"If",...you still have a job.
"Last night at 2am some people were attending a holy Koran recitation..." (said Saeed Sharif, a council member where the strike occurred).
2 am? A holy Koran recitation? With a whole bunch of kids in attendance?
Boy, talk about burning the midnight oil for Allah.
Of course, this little "propaganda" slant after the incident, worthy of a Faux News host, was primarily aimed at Afghani citizens, uttered in defense of the Taliban and al Qaeda, and their efforts to re-Talibanize Afghanistan...thus the reference to "a holy Koran recitation."
The U.S. military, as in any conflict, has made mistakes. Wedding parties have been bombed, innocent civilians killed.
But let's not forget that the al Qaeda and Taliban have also killed a whole lot of innocent civilians, especially when they use car bombs or any other type of bomb in crowded places. Afterward, they slink back into the shadows, often hiding behind innocent women and children.
So, what did happen?
More than likely, after Allied forces came under attack, the culprits fled to a nearby compound, with Allied forces using night-vision technology to track them there. Airstrikes were called in. Allied forces were going after the attackers, but probably had no idea how many people, men, women and children, were in the compound.
So, we are seeing two extreme "propaganda" slants. This Sharif guy is claiming that only innocent Afghanis were killed in the airstrikes, people who were participating in "a holy Koran recitation" at 2 am, while the military is saying that only militants were killed, because they were only chasing militants who had attacked them.
The truth, no doubt, lies somewhere in between. (Probably similar in nature to the Branch Davidian-Waco Compound tragedy, but with indiscriminate airstrikes being used instead of an encircling, land siege being employed).
BTW, I just don't like "spinners," whether the U.S. military/NATO is doing it, or some Afghani claiming that there was a 2 am Koran recitation occurring.
Just think, Afghanistan today would look a whole lot different if we had had on the ground for seven years the same number of troops (with their armaments) that the Bush/Cheney administration illegally and insanely diverted to their Iraq war effort. And when one looks at all the U.S. taxpayer money that has been thrown into Bush and Cheney's misbegotten, mishandled Iraq war, even half of what has been thrown away in Iraq could have been used in Afghanistan, saving U.S. taxpayers a bundle, while giving our counter-terrorism efforts in Afghanistan a much better chance of succeeding.
The criminally-insane Bush/Cheney administration has failed us, failed our nation, across the board.
So when did C&L jump the shark from being liberal to being straight-up anti-American? Citing a rag as your source that uses the term "martyrs" is probably a bad idea.
Where did you get this guy?
Proud Non-american @ 27:
If something like this happened on American soil, it would be a travesty of justice...a deliberate act of "terra"....it would bring about televised memorials....whoever the Prez is, would have to make tough guy speeches until hoarse......oh what a hypocritical world.
And the little deserter thinks they hate us for our freedom.
Afghanistan is a lost cause. During the year after Prez Bushie invaded Iraq, he allocated zero dollars for Afghanistan defense or military operations in the US budget. The year after that he allocated 300 million dollars for that. Afghanistan has been forgotten for six years and the US thinks that it now can be won.
Let's not forget that Prez Bushie invaded Iraq and our US military seized Saddam's palace and the oil ministry and some oil infrastructure. Bushie and Dumsfeld completely forget about securing 400 million tons (the figure is correct according the to NY Times (all the news that is unfit to print)) of munitions and bombs. Good material to make IEDs and fight the US for remnants of the Bathists. America only wants puppet democracies for oil rich nations.
Anyway in Iraq and Afghanistan, our soldiers stay in their own semi-secured bases with American food, their own McDonalds and never mingle with the natives other than to go out and inflict some collateral damage on them. Our soldiers and diplomats don't even speak their languages or dialects so they consider them all the enemy.
Obama will continue the war in Afghanistan mainly to satisfy the military-industrial complex and spend trillions more for defense.
Anyway, maybe America's great POW war hero McCain can save the day. Bush's mission was not accomplished.
Bush only 90% destroyed America financially, militarily, ethically, etc. By electing McCain, we can help McCain destroy American 100% and become another third world country.
charles @ 11:
You are oh, so right. I`ve been following these fuck-ups and as far as I`m concerned this whole procedure when encountering the so called enemy has been handed down from on high. Any resistance, call in the glorious fly boys to bomb the shit out of any thing that moves. Civilians, so what, fuck them. This is why the so called surge worked in Iraq. This all started last summer. By the way where is Bin Laden?
Commentator @ 5:
That's funny, after 9/11 thousands of American boys and girls signed up because they felt it was "payback time".
But, go ahead and call the Afghanis "terrorists" if that makes you feel any better.
Don't come crying foul when someone labels your boys and girls "terrorists" too. If the shoe fits........
No, it's the American government's fault, right? Those soldiers are just following orders. They're heroes. Support the troops! USA USA USA. [snark off]
Rico @ 8:
Of course, but it's expected, just like anything else.
1. The U.S. does not torture. It only conducts enhanced interrogations.
2. The U.S. is the liberator, the peace enforcer. They are the savages whom we're bringing democracy and ridding them of crazy terrorists.
3. When the U.S. wreaks havoc on the entire Middle East for decades and overthrows democratically elected governments in the process, it's called a battle of good against evil. When others do it it’s called terrorism, genocide, imperialism, ideology.
I might write a phraseology handbook sometime. It sure as heck will be profitable in this day and age.
Che's Lounge @ 32:
No. Because that's the beauty (not) of arrogance coupled with ignorance. I mean, can you imagine what chuckie there would have done had some British fellow with a funny accent [snark] ordered him to stay at home on the fourth of July. Chuckie would get his panties in a knot crying to his mommy about this being America, land of the free and all.
Slow down there. Having served in the country for over a year I can tell you that the notion that they were having what amounts to a prayer meeting at...2AM!!!! is a bunch of BS. This is called Information Warfare. The provincial head that made the statement about civilians is on the payroll of the Taliban, or he would be dead. He puts the statement out there as a means to influence the population.
I get that Iraq has made it hard for many to see any good in military action, but Afghanistan is the right place to be and fighting an insurgency is never pretty or easy. Slow down, think it through, and realize that while civilians MAY have been killed, it is HIGHLY unlikely that children under the age of 15 were out of their dwellings at all after dark and certainly not at a prayer meeting.
Christian terrorism. These Christofascists have turned the United States in to a re-enactment of Nazi Germany. These Christian butchers won't stop until hundreds of millions of innocent people are dead at their hands.
Seriously people, in the end who will really care?
Some people we never heard about got killed. How will this directly hurt the ignorant fools in the US?
If it does not effect them, they will not care. It is that simple.
And if dropping a bomb into a village to get a 'terrorist' saves one American life, do you honestly think an American would speak up?
Nothing will change just like nothing has ever changed.
Not for the Indians or the Hawaiians, nor the Vietnamese or the Iraqis.
Mr John Doe Jr American will throw a fit if his gas goes up 10 cents and all he needs is a good justification to support the next rabid jerkoff that wants to invade the next country to liberate it's oil and oppress the populace to fill the coffers of the oil bosses that helped put him in power.
Sadly I also have my doubts about Obama. You might start out as a politician but in order to reach the top you have to step on a lot of people and get help from a lot more. And once you reach the top you have to pay back. And the animal you have become reaching that place will be forever in you.
Wake up people, complaining about it here will not help. Your preaching to the choir.
And we will not be saved by some knight in shining armor either.
Sadly the only thing that disposes of one thug, is another.
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